Your opinion re trad shoot competition classes....

[TSP]

Perhaps I should clarify because there sems to be some confusion.  I'm speaking here of a shoot INTENDED as competition...that is the main PURPOSE of the shoot...to compete against other shooters.  Yes, we do have shoots just for fun...no scoring, winning doesn't matter, etc etc.  But not this one.  So if you don't care for competitive shoots then this thread might not be one for you.  But if you do...carry on.  Ideas are welcomed.

[KodiakBob]

A, got to separate longbows from recurves.

[Tom A]

TSP.  You could check out the IBO's break down of traditional classes and use something similar. The equipment rules they have do a pretty good job of evening the playing field out. Possibly for an all trad shoot you might also add a selfbow class.

 http://www.ibo.net/Rules/

[TSP]

For those who replied constructively, thanks for your input.  

Would have liked to get more responses but based on what's here its clear that of the two choices "A" is prefered, mostly because its simpler.  

The most surprising aspect is that folks don't seem like competitive shoots to begin with (competitive isn't 'fun').  Kinda' makes you wonder why there's so much emphasis on fast bows and arrows these days if most everyone wants to compete only against themselves.  

All good food for thought when it comes to setting up trad shoots.  

Thanks again.

[bayoulongbowman]

A...Longbows, modern longbows(Hybrid), recuves,self bows...thats all ya need ...125 grain tips would be find and is the norm , most shoots! no metal , compounds, or gajets...that works for me  

[Ric O'Shay]

Given the limitations in your original post, A would be the preferred class. As others have said, weighing arrows would open up a can of worms for everybody.
If you want to distinguish between classes and "level the playing field" so to speak, you might try this:

Recurve Open: Any arrow (carbon/aluminum)
Recurve Traditional: Wood arrow only
Longbow Open: Any arrow
Longbow Traditional: Wood arrow
Selfbow: No laminations or glass

Then if you feel the need, break those down to Men's and Women's and Cubs Class. I think you'll find that in many instances, the scores between the classes will be very competative. If fact, many times I've seen the wood arrow classes have shot higher scores than the carbon/aluminum class.

Danny

[TSP]

I like that approach, Ric, but even if we went simpler than that and just had 'Open', 'Traditional' and 'Primitive' classes I don't think my club would buy into it.  Since rules are a touchy subject here (and heaven forbid separating classes by arrow type, lol) the best approach might be to forget about competitive shoots and just shoot 'for fun'.  A little boring to do that for every shoot but the replies suggest thats what folks want.

[SpankyNeal]

I like "A" also but I also think that Hybrids do not belong in the same class as say a Hill bow for a "competition". I think that competition and compound sound very much alike and most trad shooters that I know could care less about it - the fellowship meens more! Just my $.02 worth.

[TSP]

Ken, I don't think competition in archery needs to be any less enjoyable or less popular than it is in any other sport.  I mean, who doesn't like the challenge of matching skills with others who practice the same sport regardless of what the sport is?  Shooting for points can be as much 'fun' as stumpshooting with friends on the back forty.  But, I do think you're right about the equipment aspect.  Other things being equal its much easier to be consistently accurate (score points) with advanced bows and arrows than it is with the older styles...thus the reason we separate recurves from primitive, don't use Hill bows and wood arrows in the Olympics, etc. etc.   I guess thats why I thought arrow weight (heavy arrows are harder to shoot high 3-D scores with than are light arrows regardless of bow type) might help even out the field a bit at shoots.  

I'm not really sure why having a few rules to even out the fairness aspect equates to taking all the 'fun' out of shooting, but apparently for many it does.  I do like the idea of separating  wood (heavy) and carbon (light) arrows and Hill-style bows vs. DAS/Warfs/GameMasters types when it comes to competitions.  Thats not a cheap shot at any particular type of gear.  It just makes the competitive aspect fairer in the overall by having similar "stuff" compete against each other similar "stuff" without undue advantages/disadvantages involved...not unlike whats done for car racing, boxing matches, firearms competitions, etc.  Some might say that if competition is the goal then its up to the shooter to use the most advanced gear they can get so they can maximize their chance to win.  Maybe, but all that does is universally favor hi-tech at the expense of low tech...not a good thing in my view.  

Its hard to find a middle ground on this stuff without one group or the other crying foul...either being called a traditional elitist or a techno-geek, lol.  I think thats the source of alot of needless friction between stickbowers these days...refusal by folks of each persuasion to recognize and accept differences in gear not because one or the other is 'better' but for the sake of fairness and common sense in comparing, using or competing with that gear.      

Anyway, thanks for your input.

[styckbow]

I like A up here in Canada the FCA shoot rules
are as follows RU unaided any recurve or long bow and any arrows but I believe it has to be shot off the shelf and traditional long bow which requires wood arrows and 125gr or higher pionts. But my opinion is if some one is serious about competing he will have the best gear for competing but others like me that are just out to have fun make friends and practice for hunting should shoot what they love nad just don't worry about what everyone else is shooting. Also as a side note the last couple years the top canadian trad shooter over both classes shot a longbow with wood arrows. Just my 2c  Delin

[TSP]

Delin, wouldn't that approach mean that folks shooting bows not equipped with the most advanced target accessories and materials (maximum win potential) are all apathetic about competition?  That sure isn't the case in my experience!  

I think what it comes down to is that gear used for the purpose of competing should be grouped based on their normal capability to shoot accurately while leaving the skill aspect up to the shooters themselves.  I.e., base the approach on what the rest of the world does when scores, points, or order of finish intentionally matter.  It equalizes the tools and lets the users, not the tools, dictate the outcome.  NASCAR doesn't race pickup trucks against supercharged stock cars.  Bench rest rifles don't compete against muzzleloaders.  Stickbowers don't shoot the same 3-D class or stakes as open-class compounds.  So why would DAS or Warfs (advanced barebow gear) shoot against your Daddy's off-the-shelf, heavy-arrowed hunting bow in a competitive venue?  Makes no sense.

Yes, sometimes skill does overcome technology (as was the case with your longbow/wood arrow shooting canadian friend...sounds like he's an exceptional shot).  But you have to admit that most of the time that is the exception rather than the rule.  Again, this is not an issue that is addressed by taking sides and calling folks trad elitists or gadget jockeys.  I guess I don't see the down side of trying to level the playing field at competitve trad shoots, in a fair, practical and 'fun' way, by applying common sense with a few simple rules.

[Tom A]

If you truly want to regulate equipment like Nascar regulates cars you would need to setup a shooting machine and set it to the persons draw length. Then use a chronograph to separate bows by speed and possibly a bare shaft test to see how well tuned the bow and arrow is.
   
You could then put the slow out of tune bows in there own class and put the fast “in tune” bows in another.

Or you could just set a few guide lines on equipment and let it be the shooters responsibility to acquire the best equipment that falls within his/her guidelines. Like most shoots are today.

[TSP]

"If you truly want to regulate equipment like Nascar regulates cars you would need to setup a shooting machine and set it to the persons draw length. Then use a chronograph to separate bows by speed and possibly a bare shaft test to see how well tuned the bow and arrow is."

Tom, nobody said that NASCAR was the golden icon by which to model trad shoots.  It was used as just one example of how the rest of the sports world, NASCAR being one piece of it, seeks to make competition fairly matched as well as entertaining.  We're not talking about splitting hairs or creating a massive set of regulations here, just about common sense grouping of similar types of gear.

"Or you could just set a few guide lines on equipment and let it be the shooters responsibility to acquire the best equipment that falls within his/her guidelines. Like most shoots are today."

Exactly.  Simple rules make sense.  Fair and realistic equipment guidelines make sense.  Settling differences by discussion and setting sensible boundaries to make a fair playing field and maximize shooter participation...make sense.  The problem is that few agree on what 'sensible' rules should be.  In fact, some don't agree that they are needed at all.  My own club leans towards this mindset and resists even talking about constructive ideas for change.  Its discouraging enough that some members might just say ta heck with it and find a better match for their time and interests.  That appears to be happening at archery clubs and shooting events in this general area.  Participation and interest is shrinking, even among longtime participants.  I'm now beginning to understand why.