Push Pull vs. Straight Arm Draw

[Capt]

I am rediscoverying longbow (Bear Montana #45 @ 28") after a long time away and have been trying out different stances, drawing, anchoring etc.  I am finding I have very little difference in accuracy or ability to reach my anchor at either draw and was wondering what are the advantages to each.  My father taught me on a longbow and he being a Fred Bear generation said the "only" way to draw a longbow was the push-pull method and to grip the handle like there is no tommorrow.  Are there any thoughts on what method is better and why?  I would like to think my dear old Dad is right.

[Terry Green]

There is no 'only' way.

One way might be better for you...but not everyone....Bear may have heald the bow like there is no tommorow...but Hill didn't.

I shoot push pull when I need to swing draw, and straight arm when I don't.  Why limit yourself to confinement by either?

[McDave]

I tend to favor the swing-arm draw as taught by Fred Asbell, but many better shooters than I am use other methods, or different methods at different times.  In the swing-arm draw, the bow arm is kept relatively stiff and straight throughout the draw.  I have found that even in that draw, however, it is a mistake to lock the bow arm, since it becomes more difficult for me to feel like I'm pushing at all times with my bow arm.  How can you push with a locked arm?  So I keep my bow arm slightly bent throughout the shot, which seems to help me.  I don't think Fred Asbell does this, however, so the most important thing is to develop a style that works for you.

[laddy]

The biggest advantage with the push pull and swing draw is you don't need to over reach with your drawing arm, which in turn requires that need to finish your draw by twisting your shoulders and trunk.  As far as gripping the handle, like John Schulz says put  a little pressure on it and it will work fine for you.

[Orion]

I agree with Terry.  I usually use push pull, but I like the straight (not locked) arm draw when I'm drawing on an animal.  If I can get ready far enough in advance, there's a little less movement involved with it.  Regardless, I never grip the handle as if there were no tomorrow.  The tighter you grip it, the more all of the excess energy of the bow goes into your bow hand/wrist/arm, etc. at the shot i.e., the greater the hand shock, also the greater the likelihood of torquing the bow.  A firm but light grip usually works best.

[TSP]

The video 'Hitting'em Like Howard Hill" shows very well the swing arm method used by Hill and his pupil John Schultz.  John and HH weren't fans of the set arm method, but in any case if you like the swing draw style that video is an excellent resource.  In addition to JS demonstrating the technique, John's son Tom shows how basic and fluid that style really is.  You'll be hard-pressed to see better form or accuracy in ANY shooter (Tom shoots coins and an aspirin out of the air), and I believe Tom was only about 12 years old at that time.

Good video, and a good way to learn how to shoot the Hill style for hunting.  

BTW, the swing draw or swing arm style, as employed by Hill and Schultz, does NOT promote a rigid bow arm but rather a bent arm...to help absorb the bow's energy and maintain a relaxed approach.  One thing that stands out well in the video (as well as in other HH films) is how the bow arm is never static and the bow is never short-drawn...a full draw is always reached and the draw hand never stops at anchor (positive follow-through).  That latter aspect is a key to the Hill style.

[Curtis Haden]

I realize this thread is actually more about a 'swing-draw' vs. a 'straight' bow arm, but to me, the concept of "push-pull" has much less to do with how you draw the bow, than what you're doing at release. (IMHO)

I liked Dennis Kamstra's "Tips From the Old Timer" in the Dec/Jan issue of TBM.  Now, he focuses a lot on grip, and how it relates to this, but regardless of how you grip your bow, or what position your bow arm elbow is in, you can still "push" your bow hand at the target.  I do shoot with a fairly rigid bow arm, simply because:

a.) That's one less variable for me to worry about as far as a consistent stance/draw.

and,

b.) That's what "feels" right for me.

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to shoot, but I find (for me!) that when I come to a good, solid, "full" draw, and focus on "pushing" (mentally at least!) my bow hand at the target, I'm much less likely to collapse.

Now, back to the original post's intent.  Just for clarification, I do have a distinct pause before release.  Sometimes I "swing" the bow up into position, and sometimes I start from an upright, straight arm position.  But before the string slips away, I'm locked in on the target, "pushing" the bow and "pulling" my drawing arm elbow back.

Not trying to muddy the water, but while I'm still learning, I think push-pull can be applied to any style.  Your thoughts?

[AllenR]

I like the idea of a straight static bow arm since in theory it should be more consistent.  Unfortunately, I had a problem with collapsing.  No matter how much I practiced the straight arm, as soon as I focused on the target, it would start bending.  

I finally gave up on a static straight arm and went to the push pull.  I can be far more consistent with a little forward pressure.  One writer called this "dynamic tension".  

Rick Welsh & Terry Wunderle also recommend forward pressure directed toward the target.  

I find that I am much more consistent than with a static bow arm.  

As Terry point out, your results will likely be different than mine.

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Originally posted by McDave:
 I have found that even in that draw, however, it is a mistake to lock the bow arm, since it becomes more difficult for me to feel like I'm pushing at all times with my bow arm.  How can you push with a locked arm?  

By using your back muscles.

[laddy]

I think that one of the points that often gets over looked on bent or straighter arm is the bow grip.  the true Hill style does not come so easy with a bridged grip or steep pistol grip.  Both of these tend to slip to the thumb if the bow arm is bent.  On the Bear Montana there is a locator grip which would perhaps make the arm to be more comfortable if there would a moderate but not to extreme bend.  In my case I also find the amount of grip pressure also changes, more angle less pressure is probably better.  With the straight grip it seems full hand contact is the only way.

[McDave]

Jason, the comment that Fred Asbell made to me when watching me shoot was that I need to push more with my bow arm.  He said "you don't really seem to be pushing, you just seem to be holding it out there."  I've been wondering ever since what the difference is between pushing and just holding it out there.  I thought I had it figured out that by keeping my bow arm bent a little, I felt more like I was pushing with it.  Could you please expand on your remark, as that might get me headed in the right direction?

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

McDave,

I've got to say I'm not very good at explaining these things in writing. But as you contract your upper back muscles (i.e. squeezing your shoulder blades together), what happens is that your chest actually expands a little bit. Think of it like pushing your pecks out. When this happens, your draw should expand a little bit, kind of completing the push/pull through the release.

[McDave]

Thanks Jason, I appreciate your feedback.

[MYSTIKBOW]

Check out the article by Dennise Kamstra in the last issue of Traditional bowhunter magazine.
Tips from the old timer. 3/4 of the article is about push/pull and why it's so important to do it right.

[Capt]

Thank you to everyone for all your advice.  Last night I went out and to the backyard and decided to just "let 'er rip", work on my form and had my most accurate night of shooting. The push/pull method was what I used with a medium grip.

[Archer Fletchington]

I realize you may have solved your dilemma, but after reading everyone's ideas I just wanted to add a little something.  
I shoot a longbow. I'm still learning.  On my bow I have a fairly straight grip, slightly shaped.  My mentor a few weeks ago reminded me of something I know he told me before.  He reminded me to let the pressure of the bow come down into the lower part of my hand (the heal), when I'm pushing out with my bow arm.  I think I never really understood it before.  But it really made a huge difference in my accuracy.  It feels really solid, you have your arm bones involved.  It seems to diminish the "noise" I may have been adding to the arrow as it left the bow by slightly squeezing the grip as I released.  So now with the lighter grip and the bow pushing into the heal of my hand, it feels much more solid.  Still working on form...and reading Become the Arrow by Byron Fergusson.

[Sixby]

Why are we even talking about arms? We should be talking about back . A bow properly drawn is drawn with the back muscles which are much stronger than the arm. You use the arm for leverage only and draw with a camming action. The bow arm should be only slightly or not involved in this process at all. When we talk about good shooting form we talk about back tension not arm tension. the elbow of the string arm should be in perfect alignment with the arrow and the back muscles tight. the arms are almost parallel or are parallel to each other.

[Str8Shooter]

I was told that Fred Bears style of push/pull drawing originated with his being a little overbowed when he started out. Apparently, he started off a bit too heavy and found out he was better able to control the bow by simultaneously pushing and pulling until he reached full draw and anchor. It also contributed to him being a self admitted snap shooter. I was told he later practiced other methods of drawing but wasn't as confident as his push/pull.

Now, I never met Fred Bear but my old boss knew him as a business associate and was invited to hunt at his Deerhaven several times. I used to sit and bug him after work to tell me stories about Fred, his shooting style was one of things I was particularily interested in.

As it pertains to this question, I shoot mainly with a set arm method. I can and will shoot with a dynamic draw (swing, push/pull) as the situation demands but I'm most comfortable with a stiff arm. One thing that I think needs to be mentioned with a set arm is the importance of not fully locking the elbow joint of the bow arm. A good follow through depends on the continuation of the pushing force of the bow arm and pulling of the release hand. If the bow arm is locked out you won't be able to continue the forward push at release. This tends to cause a collapse of the bow arm.

I hope I described that so it makes sense...    

Chris