Inaccuracy³

[MadMichael]

Hello!

Iam as new here as I am new to shooting bows, so please dont bash me for asking stupid questions!        

I got a #45 (actually #48) laminated long bow as present and as a newbie I was totally lost about arrows, the shopkeeper gave me arrows with ''the right spine'' and 100 grains heads. The total weight of the arrow is 385 grains, and they are 31'' long, I draw 29''. As a totally beginner the shopkeeper told me the rules of bowshooting, ''always have a soft grip, always draw the same length [corner of mouth in my case], the release should be slow and soft. Following all these rules I cannot hit the broadside of a barn, and I am sure id did it right.

The arrows always hit high 10,11 and 12 o' clock (I draw the string with the right hand) no matter how hard I try. I dont think thats entirely my fault, my draws and realeses were very consistent but the arrows made a shotgun-like pattern.  As a rifle shooter I know that practice makes a good shot, but I shoot the bow since a month and didnt make any progress at all. The arrows still hit toally random, the groups are at least 20'' wide; and that from only 20 yards!    

Could it be that the spine is too soft so the arrow ''jumps'' around after the realease? Thanks for any help!

[Tom A]

Please describe your arrows and bow in better detail. What size and brand are the arrows?  Do they have plastic or feather fletching.

[MadMichael]

Sorry, I try to be more specific!

The arrows are hand made by the shop and are made of spruce with a plastic fletching. They are 31'' long and have a diameter of .334''. The arrow weighs 385 grains overall included the head which weighs 100 grains.

The problem I have is that no matter what I do the arrows hit left high from 10 to 12 o'clock. ( I shoot right-handed)
Consistent grouping is not possible at all, despite perfectly following all basic rules.       :(  

The arrows are shot from a laminated #48 long-bow bow from 29'' draw. The wood could be rosewood but its impossble to be sure since the finish is pretty thick. Its a bow from the brand '' Samick Verna''

[BRITTMAN]

If you have plastic vanes that is your problem. You need to be shooting feathers when shooting off the shelf .

Mike

[Tom A]

Longbows that are shot off the shelf need to use softer feather fletching. Your hard plastic vanes are probably hitting the shelf on release and throwing your arrows all over the place. Also I would say your pushing the weight limit with those arrows and they are probaby not the proper spine for your bow.


In order for you to get that bow shooting right you will need arrows properly spined for it with real feathers. 55-60# wood arrows would probably work. Or you might want to go with some aluminum arrows. Possibly a Easton 2016.

[Blackhawk]

If you are shooting those arrows off the shelf, the plastic vanes could be one of the sources of problems.  Feathers are much better for this type of shooting.  

In addition, is that shop keeper familiar with trad archery?  or is he simply applying the rules he uses for compound bow setups?

As a beginner, forget the 20 yard grouping worries and concentrate on "form" (you know, anchor, back tension, release, follow thru, blah, blah, blah).  Get up close to your target, pick your spot, and go for it.

Remember, matching the proper arrow to the bow is first and foremost in attaining accuracy.  If you lack this, then you have "Inaccuracy3".

[McDave]

I would imagine that being as new to archery as you say you are, you have a combination of form and equipment problems.  And, depending on how long you have actually been shooting, 20" groups may not be all that bad from 20 yards.  Shooting a bow accurately does not come overnight.

Someone who knows good form needs to see you shoot.  That could be someone where you are, or you could send a video to this forum.

With longbows, we normally shoot off the shelf, rather than using an arrow rest.  If we shoot off the shelf, it is better to use feathers than plastic fletching.  If there is an arrow rest on your bow, it is okay to use plastic fletching as long as it doesn't contact the bow when the arrow is shot.  But you should consider switching to shooting off the shelf if you're shooting a longbow.

A 385 grain arrow is a little light for your bow.  You could solve that problem by using 125 grain points, which would also give your arrows a little better balance.

I don't know what's meant by a release that is "slow and soft."  That doesn't describe what I understand about a good release, but it could be, depending on what you mean when you say that.  That's why someone needs to look at you when you shoot.

I hope you enjoy archery, and find that solving these problems can be part of the fun!

[Blackhawk]

Brittman, McDave, and Tom A,

It looks as if we were all three talking at the same time...and saying about the same thing, huh?

[MadMichael]

Thanks for the helpful answers, I really appreciate it!            

As I can see the plastic ''feathers'' might cause  the problem.

Really?
They are so light and compressible, do they really matter that much? They are made of a lot small plastic pins which stay thightly together, they arent made out of one piece and are easily compressible with a single fingertip.

As said before I dont know their spine, but the shopkeeper told me how much spine they would require and gave them to me, as far as I can remember he used the correct spine for #50 pounds.
     

In addition, is that shop keeper familiar with trad archery? or is he simply applying the rules he uses for compound bow setups?

The shop is actually specialized for traditional bows, all they sell are traditional recurves, horsebows and long-bows. The owner himself also won a lot of competitions with rifle and long-bow so I dont think to blame him is right. But he ONLY sells plastic-feathered arrows for his traditional bows, thats why I am still puzzled about it.

I'll get two or three arrows with real feathers then, with spine 55-60 and a tad heavier arrow head like 125 grain and see how they work out.

   

I don't know what's meant by a release that is "slow and soft."

Thats just a bad translation, he showed me the right release so I just described it wrong.        
He showed me how to release without ''picking'' the string which makes perfectly sense.

Of course I still have to learn a LOT but the result of my effort I put into shooting the bow is utterly scarce.  No progress at all a whole month long not knowing whats wrong is really distressing.

[Ray Johnson]

The first thing I would do is shoot from 6-8 yards max for a while.20 yards is too far.When you can group at 8 yards then back up to 10 yards and so on.

[MadMichael]

A distance that short is kind of a problem as the arrows still bend at 8 yard away and hit the target a bit sideways. I even have that problem from 20 yards every now and then, and thats what got me thinking about the arrows beeing wrong.

[McDave]

If the arrows still bend at 8 yards, and even a little bit at 20 yards, something is not right.  You should be able to take all the fletches off the arrow and shoot the bare shaft and have it fly perfectly true if the arrow is matched to the bow and your form is reasonably good.  We call that "bare shaft tuning" and many of us use that method to match our arrows to our bow.

I am not familiar with the type of plastic fletches you describe.  Here in the US, I've only seen the solid plastic fletches, which is why we use feathers instead.

[MadMichael]

Thats the fake plastic feathers I was talking about, maybe its hard to see but its made of a lot of tiny plastic pieces.

 

You should be able to take all the fletches off the arrow and shoot the bare shaft and have it fly perfectly true if the arrow is matched to the bow and your form is reasonably good.

That sounds like an idea, I will try that tomorrow and post the results. So I can see if the problem is caused by the plastic feathers and if the spine works at all.

[McDave]

When you shoot the bare shaft, if you find that the nock is consistently left, and the shaft hits to the right of the fletched arrows, then the spine of the arrow is too weak for your bow (and vice-versa).  However, if the shaft contacts the bow, all bets are off; the method only works if the shaft flies free.  Which is why we normally start our bare shaft tuning with a relatively high nock point (maybe 7/8") and adjust our nock point after we solve our spine problem.  After we have a shaft of the correct spine, we gradually lower our nock point until any nock high is eliminated (or minimized, if it can't be eliminated).

[Gurn]

I am also new at this and can tell you, for me progress has been slow. Trying to learn a 20yds can be very fustrating. The book I'm reading now by Brian Sorrells recomends starting a 5', not yards, them moving to 10' only after you have put 500 arrows into a 2" circle at 5. It keeps moving you away from the target very slowly, reminding you that your fourm is of the main importance. Read alot on this fourm, as there is a wealth of know how here. Look at the posted videos, and listen to the comments made. After a while you will figure out what will work for you and what won't. Remember progress for most is slow, and that in its self will make it all the more sweet when you start getting better.  
Just some thought from a beginner.

[Tom A]

MadMichael. I believe those are real turkey feathers. They are just died and cut. So this is not your problem.

You might try shooting with the cock feather in toward the bow to see if you get better arrow flight.  Is it possible you could find out what spine the arrows are?  You may be under spined.  Wood arrows usually come in spine groups of 5#. Like 40-45, 50-55, 60-65.  The longer your arrow and draw length is from 28" the higher spine your going to need from the poundage listed on your bow.

Here are some good charts for arrow spine
  http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Spine_Charts.html