Asbell instinctive shooting question

[Lytic]

I recently purchased Asbell's book and DVD on instinctive shooting. Even though I already shoot instinctive I figure another's view is never a bad thing, however I'm getting hung up on one of his theories.

He is very clear on the "push-pull" of the release using physics to back this idea with every action has an equal and opposite reaction. He then goes on to state that if you stop pushing you will stop pulling.

Mr Asbell states that you cannot pull if you do not push and vice-versa. I'm seeing this as a grosse over simplification or misunderstood altogether. I guess I'm getting confused with the word "push" and his reliance on Newton's law of motion.  

To me "push" is a dynamic action that means motion as well as force. However a static arm can easily hold the bow while the other arm draws the string all in perfect accordance with Newton's law of motion.

So is he addressing relaxing of the bow arm, or is he saying you need to extend out your bow arm while you draw with your other arm?

[McDave]

I will be watching this string closely to see what answers you get.  I have modeled my style to Asbell's.  I have read all his books and looked at his video.  I have attended his traditional clinic at BW.  I feel that I have learned a lot and thank him for it.

But I'm still not sure what he means by pushing with my bow arm.  In the clinic, he said he thought I was just holding my bow arm out there, not pushing with it.  At first, I thought I had it figured out; I would not lock my bow arm elbow and by doing that I got more of a pushing feeling with my bow arm.  But I have been told that that is not the answer.  I think it has to do with back tension.

Asbell changed his mind, or at least his description, of how to hold the bow string: he now favors a deep hook.  I am looking forward to more revelations on exactly what he means by pushing with the bow arm.

[BLACK WOLF]

You want the tension to be felt in the tricep if you're looking for the feel of the push with your bow arm...just as you want to feel the tension of your rhomboids as you create back tension.

Ray  

[Lytic]

K, tension in the back makes sens for form, but tension in the tricep? How could you shoot a bow without tension in the tricep?

[Scott J. Williams]

I too am a little confused by what Mr. Asbell is saying.  For me it is a simple push and pull, what I mean is that I always push the pressure point on the grip to the target throughout the shot.  This prevents what I call, "negative tension", meaning a dead shot, dead release, or just a pull with no push.  I think people get confused because it is a gentle push, not an agressive one, or hard one.

I can tell when I am losing it, because my shots will drift left and right.

[BLACK WOLF]

Originally posted by Lytic:
K, tension in the back makes sens for form, but tension in the tricep? How could you shoot a bow without tension in the tricep?

The same is basically true for the back muscles. It's impossible to shoot a bow in the standard way without tension in the back muscles.

It's all a matter of where the focus and concentration is. You want the focus to be in your back during the pull with your drawing arm and you want the focus to be on the tricep of the bow arm during the push.

Ray  

[AllenR]

Pushing with your bow arm generally means directed pressure.  Obviously, in physics, for every pull there has to be a push, however that is usually not the meaning in archery.

There are three general ways to shoot a bow:
- Pull
- Push
- Push-Pull

For archers who are pulling only, it means that the bow arm is static.  Once you are at full draw, it should be like a board.  Your bow shoulder is down and as far back as possible and while you are using muscle, you want to be as relaxed as possible.  


For archers who Push-Pull the bow arm is more active in the shot.  You are giving the bow a little directed pressure with the bow hand and arm.  The bow shoulder should still be down and back, but not quite as much as if you are pulling only.

Push only - I've never seen anyone do this, so I won't try to describe it.

I'm not sure if Fred means the same thing by push pull.  Many archery terms often get misused.

Allen

[bkupris]

It's my understanding that a good balanced shot consists of the following: (right handed archer)

Draw Force Line(DFL) viewed from 3oclock should run from (your) pressure point on the bow grip through the nock of the arrow and the draw arm forearm and elbow at full draw.The bow arm shoulder should be below the arrow at full draw(the push).

DFL at 6oclock will run straight through pressure point on bow grip, through arrow and forearm and elbow in a straight line.

Finally if you can draw a straight line through bow arm at pressure point on bow grip and both shoulders (not parallel to 6oclock DFL)ie. (the pull) you are in a very powerful and stable alignment.

If you can manage to get your skeleton into this alignment you are much less likely to collapse or creep at release and you will have a well balanced shot.

It is referred to in technical terms as the "Oblique Trapezoidal Stance"

[McDave]

Brian said: "The bow arm shoulder should be below the arrow at full draw(the push)."

I guess my question, and maybe the original poster's question is this: if you're pulling back 60 lbs, you have to be pushing forward 60 lbs, or the bow would spring backwards and bop you in the nose; no other result is possible.  But clearly, something else is going on, or Fred wouldn't have made the comment to me that it looked like I wasn't really pushing with my bow arm.  So is "push" the wrong word to describe what's going on (at least for those of us anal enough to take words literally)?

I think some of the answer might be in your comment above, if you would care to expand on it.  Are we really talking about rotating the shoulders into allignment with the bow arm rather than pushing with the bow arm?

Actually, my shooting isn't that bad; I can group pretty well at the distances I want to hunt at, so maybe I'm pushing without knowing it.  But if I knew the difference between "really" pushing (in the archery sense) and just opposing the pulling force (in the Newtonian sense) then it would at least answer one of my lingering unanswered questions.

[bkupris]

I think some of the answer might be in your comment above, if you would care to expand on it.  Are we really talking about rotating the shoulders into allignment with the bow arm rather than pushing with the bow arm?

Both actually. Setting the bow arm shoulder (scapula)down and forward at pre draw (and keeping it there) makes room for your drawing arm scapula to move down and forward toward the spine at full draw.   This results in the skeletal alignment I am referring to. Problem is if we are over bowed we will struggle to get there because we will not have the strength to keep the bow shoulder (scapula)in the correct position, it will move back toward the spine and restrict the movement of the drawing arm scapula. Does that help at all?

[McDave]

Thanks Brian, as it is used in archery, then, pushing with the bow arm also incorporates keeping the bow shoulder down. Makes sense.

[Lytic]

Wow, Thanks for all the great replies, and I can see I am not the only one who was confused. I can see that shooting instructions via literature almost requires anatomical vocabulary to avoid misunderstanding and maintain clarity.

Brian great info but I'm confused on a point here. you state "The bow arm shoulder should be below the arrow at full draw".

Then you state "DFL at 6oclock will run straight through pressure point on bow grip, through arrow and forearm and elbow in a straight line. Finally if you can draw a straight line through bow arm at pressure point on bow grip and both shoulders (not parallel to 6oclock DFL)ie. (the pull) you are in a very powerful and stable alignment."

These statements seem to contradict each other. How can you draw a line (btw all geometric lines are straight, so it's redundant to say straight line) that incorporates both shoulders with the DFL if your bow shoulder is lower then the rest?

[eggomaniac]

In the John Schulz video, Hitting them like Howard Hill, he talks about a 'push-pull' in regards to the draw, not the release. The swing or spread draw has a simultaneous push and pull, except for the last few inches completing the pull into anchor. On release, he talks about both hands holding position until the arrow hits, nothing about a push or pull on release.
He does say that target archers get great scores by starting with the bow arm fully extended, which does not mean a locked out elbow, and doing the draw all by pull; but that the 'push pull' swing draw is more likely to have success in hunting situations.
The bow arm should come up without the shoulder coming up.

[eggomaniac]

Google of Asbell push pull, comes up with many headings of a push/pull 'draw'. I noticed some of them linked back to this forum, so there are probably some good threads right here in this Forum from days gone by.
There was even an archery dictionary, from which this is Copied.>>"push-pull draw / A technique of drawing the bow; one of the first taught. The bow is held with a bent (bowarm) elbow, fairly close to the body. The draw is begun by pushing forward, away from the body, with the bow, while drawing the string back to the anchor point. The method used by Fred Bear. Compare with set-arm and locked-arm-swing"
I don't know if links are accepted here, but Google Bow'n Dictionary if you want to see someone's effort on building an archery dictionary.

[bkupris]

 "Finally if you can draw a straight line through bow arm at pressure point on bow grip and both shoulders (not parallel to 6oclock DFL)ie. (the pull) you are in a very powerful and stable alignment."

These statements seem to contradict each other. How can you draw a line (btw all geometric lines are straight, so it's redundant to say straight line) that incorporates both shoulders with the DFL if your bow shoulder is lower then the rest? [/QB]

Sorry for the confusion. The last line I am referring to (bow arm and shoulders) is viewed from the birds eye view. I'll try and post some diagrams of this some time soon.

[bkupris]

Lytic, this is what I was referring to.

 http://argyllfieldarchers.org.uk/PhotoAlbums/album_1201646773/untitled.JPG

[Bowferd]

bkupris, I think b,d,and e are my biggest culprits. Sometimes good and sometimes bad. But what the hell we're here to learn, aren't we?

[bkupris]

Bowferd

That's for sure, me included...    Easier said than done!

[Lytic]

Great pic, thanks for the advise and views everyone.