Is this "Instinctive Shootin"?

[koger]

I have been working on my form a lot, moving back and forth in my 50yd. range, left over from my compound days, at 3 different targets and stump shooting in the back forty. I dont really aim, per se, just concetrate on what I want to hit, I use a cheekbone anchor with my index finger out to about 23 yds, and face walk at 30 halfway between my cheek and corner of my mouth, and to the corner of my mouth at 38-40yds. When stump shooting I dont really figure the yardage, the "computer" seems to take over and I do very well out to 35yds, sometimes even to 40. 35 is about the limit I would take a shot on a deer, and that only if all conditons are perfect, with most of my past shots on game being 24yds and under. I am not really looking at the arrow, the tip or the angle,after 35 years of bowhunting, I am shooting better, overall than ever before. I have only been totally traditional for the last 3 years, but have always had a couple of trad. bows that I have continued to shoot. This website has helped me immensley, learned more from this place and you guys than I ever learned everywhere else put together on tuning my trad. gear. I would really like all your feedback as I appreciate honest criticism. Thanks, Sam.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

sounds like I.S. & walking styles both work for you...Shooting under the 24 yards sound more like you use I.S. then walking... Hell if they work does it matter if you/others call it I.S. or face walking?

[McDave]

I have always considered instinctive shooting to mean that you don't use any part of the bow, arrow, your hand, finger, etc., as an aiming device.  When you say "I am not really looking at the arrow, the tip or the angle..." you kind of enter a gray area, because "not really looking," is not the same thing as "not being aware of in any way."

Howard Hill was "aware" of the arrow in his field of vision, without using it as an aiming device.  In other words, he didn't consciously set a gap.  That's fine with me, and I'll take him at his word on that.  To me that's still instinctive shooting.  Others would say that if you're aware of the arrow, you can't help but use it as an aiming device.

Fred Asbell does not believe there should be any awareness of the arrow at all, and one of the main reasons he advocates the swing draw is to keep the arrow out of view for as long as possible.  Fred is not one to split hairs and probably would not want to argue the point as to whether Hill's method was instinctive or not.  But he does believe that we should focus all our attention on the target and lose any awareness we might have of things in our peripheral vision, to the extent possible.

As far as using different anchors, I don't think that has any relevance as to whether you're shooting instinctively or not, so long as you're not using an aiming device.  When I haven't been regularly shooting at 50 yards, I find it helpful to shoot, instinctively, at an imaginary point about 3 feet above where I want to hit, which may be a similar thing.

However, if I shoot at 50 yards for a while, say 15-20 arrows, I find that my arrows begin to creep up toward my aiming point, so my "computer" is beginning to adjust to that range.  After it adjusts, I just focus on the target I want to hit, the same as I do at 20 yards.

Your method may be better, because from your post your face walking does not appear to cause your mental computer to make an automatic correction like mine does when I shoot at a point above the target.  What are your ideas on that?

Anyway, in my view if you're not using your arrow, etc., as an aiming system, I think you're shooting instinctively, although others may disagree.  A whole other group of people would say, "who cares?" as long as you're shooting arrows and having fun.

[BMOELLER]

Whatever works.  Its all traditional archery!!

[Van/TX]

I use a cheekbone anchor with my index finger out to about 23 yds, and face walk at 30 halfway between my cheek and corner of my mouth, and to the corner of my mouth at 38-40yds.  

Nope, that's not instinctive shooting. That's target shooting and a good technique I might add for known ranges like Field Archery or if you've stepped off the 3-D range or if you use a range finder when hunting      

That being said, the purpose of releasing an arrow is to hit the target.  One's aiming system must be worked out by the individual for maximum benefit     ...Van

[BLACK WOLF]

I agree with what most here have already shared.

Instinctive Aiming is basically just as McDave described.

Should it matter what you call it?

Not really...unless you want to teach it or fully understand it for educational purposes while trying to eliminate any confusion...other than that...call it whatever you want    

Ray  

[frassettor]

Originally posted by BMOELLER:
Whatever works.  Its all traditional archery!!

I agree  

[JEFF B]

if it aint broke dont fix it    sounds like you worked it out for ya self

[koger]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I do stiff arm draw as in Asbells book, and since most of my hunting is under 25 yds, I use only one anchor and burn a hole at the target I am staring/shooting at. I do the face walking for my occasional 3d shoots and just to stand back at 35-40 and watch them fly. Shore are pretty in the evening sunlight! McDave, to answer your question, no my arrows all group pretty well together. This evening after making this post,I shot my first string of 12 from around 15, working back 2-3 steps every shot to around 38 yds, back and forth in a zig zag pattern,so even though I know the rough yardage,it would still be off 2-3 yds. All 12 shots were in a 6 inch circle on the kill zone of my deer target. This was shooting a 55#@28, 60" BW, 1974 Hunter 1226 model, with a 29", 560gr. carbon express arrow with 150 tips, included in the total weight, 4" proabolic feathers.Sam.

[Daddy Bear]

Today I was hauling bundles of "what-not" for my wife down the steps of our tall front porch. I could only see the horizon out into the yard, and I thought how cool was our ability to develop motor memory as I knew exactly where my feet were in relation to the steps while looking off into the distance. I then thought about my youth when I ran across a tall train trestle that spanned a good 50feet above a river. The gaps between the cross ties were wide enough for your feet to fall through yet I could run at full speed while looking straight ahead and place my feet exactly on each tie.

I'm of the opinion the above motor memory used to place my feet onto a specific spot is no different than the motor memory used to place my bow hand, anchor, and drawing arm elbow onto specific spots when using an "instinctive" method. I will qualify this by saying there are times I need to pinpoint a very tiny spot with my feet or hands and the ability to fine tune this motor memory with sight adds to precision. I find this true for me as when I'm shooting small targets at longer distances, I tend to take into account my arrow in relation to my intended target. But, when I'm shooting at spitting distances on fast targets such as aerials or flushed game, I tend to do everything possible to mask the arrow and bow from my vision so that I can completely rely on the feel of my motor memory. I tend to fumble a bit if I start looking at the arrow.

Using your terms, I tend to use a swing draw when shooting close quarters on fast targets as it keeps the arrow out of my view and aids the motor memory feel of my bow hand swinging up below my line of sight to the target. By the time my bow hand is where I feel it needs to be, I'm only inches away from my anchor. I trust my feel and loose the arrow as I reach anchor. Flip-side, if I'm shooting a small target at 40yards or better, I'll use more of a push-pull style that better affords me time to dress my shot by using the arrow in my periphery. I don't figure yardage and estimate an exact gap on the long shots, but I do take into account the arrow and use the method of "that gap feels right".

later,
Daddy Bear

[toddster]

I think what we all miss out on, is the History of a true great like Mr. Hill, of how he came to be that good.  I am sure at one time he had to see the arrow in vision to make the shot.  But from millions of arrows one some to just look and shoot without thinking of it.

[BLACK WOLF]

Howard Hill described one of his main aiming techiniques as Split Vision.

Split Vision is like combining Gap and Point of Aim, where the archer places the point of the arrow on some predetermined spot while spliting their vision between that spot, the arrow point and the target.

The target is primarily in focus while the arrow point and the spot are somewhat blurred within the archer's periphial vision.

I believe Howard used 3 different aiming techiniques depending on the shot and the situation with Split Vision being his primary one. Based on my research he probably used Instinctive Aiming and Point of Aim also when he felt it was the best techinique to use for that particular shot.

Ray    

[McDave]

"Split Vision is like combining Gap and Point of Aim, where the archer places the point of the arrow on some predetermined spot while spliting their vision between that spot, the arrow point and the target."

Howard Hill, in his book "Hunting the Hard Way" said that he didn't "place the point of the arrow on some predetermined spot."  He was simply aware of it in his peripheral vision.

The best analogy I can think of is parking a car between the stripes in a parking lot.  You look at the stripes, you're aware of the hood of the car, but you don't place the hood ornament or a point on the hood of the car on some predetermined spot to aim the car.  Being aware of the components involved, you simply drive between the stripes.

Taking Howard Hill at his word, and accepting that he did not place the arrow point on any particular spot, it seems to me that what he calls split vision is a type of instinctive shooting.

[BLACK WOLF]

McDave,

I'll have to try and find the quotes instead of just recalling it through memory that described Howard's Split Vision form of aiming which included placing the point of the arrow on a predetermined spot.

If I recall correctly...he did use a specific spot to place his arrow tip on when competeing in target competitions but used an area or an animals anatomy to help him determine where to place his arrow tip.

I also remember reading that his point on was around 50yrds. and while hunting he knew at 40yrds. he would need to place the arrow tip at the bottom of a deer's chest within his periphial vision to hit the kill zone and at 30yrds. the arrow tip was near the deers knees within his periphial vision.

For an aiming style to be totally instinctive the archer can't be consciously aware of the arrow. If the archer consciously uses the arrow at all within their periphial vision, they are either Gapping or using Point of Aim to some extent or another.

Ray  

[McDave]

You are correct, Black Wolf.  I re-read Hill's chapter on shooting the bow in "Hunting the Hard Way," and he does put the arrow on a predetermined spot.  What confused me was that he emphasizes never taking your eye off the target, and always keeping the tip of the arrow out of focus in your peripheral vision.  For example, he says "The one fault that defeats the efforts of many archers when using the method I advocate is that they allow their eyes to shift away from the target to the point of the arrow and back to the target again.  If the archer allows himself to do this, he may just as well forget this type of aiming; it will not work that way."

But in other parts of the chapter, he indicates that he does place the out-of-focus arrow point on a spot, apparently by using his peripheral vision while still focusing on the target, so his split-vision is an aiming method and not an instinctive method of shooting the bow.