Member Video - HELP with a new anchor?

[Allan Hundeby]

Hey, guys.  I looked at the videos/threads which Terry stickied on this forum.  After reading all those, I finally decided to video myself.  I learned a lot!

For the first video, I placed the camera tripod on the ground, tilted up towards me.  For the second video, it was on top my car behind me.  Sorry for the cheesy jazz on my radio, and the poor video quality.  The transfer to .flv was terrible --the fletching colour is completely washed out!    :mad:    It's hard to see, but four of my arrows landed around the central crab-apple, plus one flier at the  lower-left.

Now, even though my "best" groups at 59~60 yards were about 8" across, I had MANY flyers along the way.   I use bareshafts every practice session, and my bow/arrows still aren't "tuned" to my liking, but  I think my form is off to begin with:

In the videos... my wrist is too angled for my fingers to be aligned with the string for split-finger; because my elbow and bow arm are too high; because I am trying to put the arrow closer to my face/eyes; so I felt the burn in my shoulders mostly (especially my right) instead of between my shoulder-blades; my bow arm jerks violently upon release; and I know I need to feel more back-tension.  

 http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc335/alfrumpus/?action=view¤t=20080717bform.flv
and
 http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc335/alfrumpus/?action=view¤t=20080723cform.flv

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So...

I tried lowering my elbow and bow arm significantly to establish a proper T-form.  Wow!  I can really feel the back tension now, and I don't get NEARLY as tired.  I can shoot split-finger (which is a bit quieter), and my movement after release is minimized.  However, my aim is now completely off, of course, and my release-hand isn't in any repeatable place near my face.  I seem to be shooting more like an Olympic style now (i.e.  http://www.texasarchery.org/Photos/Formaster/Formaster.htm  )


Q. Is it possible for me to keep this proper T-Form/back tension and find new anchors without using a sight pin?

It looks like Terry can do it - by tilting his head into the shot for a smooth release (  http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/tgshot91.wmv  ), but I don't see where to anchor.

[SHOOTO8S]

Allan, in your 1st video, are you shooting 4 fingers under?

[Allan Hundeby]

Naw, it just looks like that.  3-under.

[BLACK WOLF]

Allan,

What are your specific goals that you want to achieve in archery?

Is it to be a bowhunter...a competitive target archer...what exactly?

Whatever it may be...first and foremost...you want to develop consistantcy with your chosen form and engrain it within your muscle memory.

Thanks,

Ray  

[Allan Hundeby]

Thanks for the reply, guys.  I use target archery to tune my bow/arrows (which is seeming like an endless process), and then like to stump-shoot to simulate bowhunting.  My goal is to use the target form to work on my form and increase my skills/accuracy at bowhunting.  Does this make sense?  

BW, are you suggesting that one should shoot with different anchor points depending on the style/purpose of shooting?  Or is it possible to get "proper" T-form... and still keep the arrow close enough to your eye to benefit bowhunting ranges?

I've been using the form in the first videos for about a year now, but then I realized that I wasn't really using "back-tension" at all... I felt over-bowed in a hunting situation where I need to draw back slowly and quietly.  So right now I'm experimenting with overhauling my form.  With the changes I've made in the last week, I feel the tension between my trapezoids (shoulder-blade muscles) instead of fatiguing my outer-deltoids (shoulder muscles).  I can hold the bow for MUCH longer now without getting near as tired.  My draw length has now increased by ~1.5", but of course my aiming is way off.

Here's a video I made today of a MUCH-lowered bow-arm and elbow:
 http://s525.photobucket.com/albums/cc335/alfrumpus/?action=view¤t=20080817cform.flv


I still would like to know what people would recommend for an anchor point(s) with the "new" form.  I'm now opposed to a kisser button, but I might just slide the inner string silencers toward the nock and use them.

[BLACK WOLF]

Not necessarily...but your goals can often shape your form.

What you do in practice is more likely what you will do in the field while hunting...so if you incorporate what you might experience in the field during your practice sessions...you will be better prepared for when you actually get out there and hunt than if you were to strictly practice with only target form.

Typical Target form can definitely work and be successful. Many bowhunters are successful with it...but it is more limited in hunting situations.

What is considered typical hunting form looks slightly different than target form.

In what is considered by many as typical bowhunting form the archer has a more open stance to help eliminate contact with hunting clothing. Bowhunting form also often consists of bending at the waist and at the knees more due to the position a bowhunter can often be in while stalking and sneaking up on a deer. It also allows the bowhunter to have more freedom of movement to react quickly if need be to a moving target.

All these can effect the position of your upper body alignment while striving for that 'T-form'.

You want an anchor point that allows you to be consistant and to help create proper back tension and produce a good follow through.

Another thing to consider is the closer you can get the arrow to the eye the easier you can use it as an aiming reference.

An archer who shoots on average at 20yrds. may want to consider adjusting their anchor and release to allow them to get Point On at 20yrds.

If you're competeing in field tournaments where the targets can range from 5 to 80yrds. having a Point On of 20yrds. may not be as beneficial as maybe a 40 or 50yrds. Point On...unless you are String Walking or Face Walking

I hope you can see how each decision can shape your form. I know I personally want to see you become the best archer you can be that satisfies your personal goals.

It's not crutial that you achieve a perfect 'T-form'. Having a high drawing elbow is not a detriment to good shooting. Many Olympic archers shoot with what many may consider as a high elbow.

What is crutial is that you develop a form that is consistant however that may look as long as it's not affecting your accuracy negatively and allows you to achieve your specific goals.

Ray    

[Allan Hundeby]

Originally posted by BLACK WOLF:
...An archer who shoots on average at 20yrds. may want to consider adjusting their anchor and release to allow them to get Point On at 20yrds.

...It's not crutial that you achieve a perfect 'T-form'. Having a high drawing elbow is not a detriment to good shooting. Many Olympic archers shoot with what many may consider as a high elbow.

Thanks for your advice, Blackwolf!  Over the last week I've fiddled with form, making adjustments while testing/tuning some new CX Maxima 350 arrows --seeing what form adjustment does to the spine of the arrow and impact.  (I want to experiment before I "settle in" to a new form... and spend $$ on a dozen.)

I know when I shot compound, then release aid took my elbow high, and it felt great, but that was because my hand was upside down.  Do you know of the names of these archers so I can look 'em up on Youtube?  I'd like to see how they shoot with a tab, with anchor on face, and still get "correct" back tension.

[BLACK WOLF]

Here's a taste of what you can see of various archers and their shooting styles and form.

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iul_dnnMvTk&feature=related

How you follow through is a good indication of back tension.

A kep point to consider...is to not think of back tension...but think follow through and have your drawing consistantly end up in a straight backwards position from the pull of the bowstring. If you're doing that...you can be guareenteed you're getting back tension.

By the way....those are Great Videos!!!

Go out buy 'em...you won't regret it.

Ray  

[Allan Hundeby]

Thanks again, Blackwolf.  I bought MOTB from Trish Ferrera shortly after release, and MOTBB2 a few months ago.  You're right.  They're awesome.

[Shooterboy]

I saw the video of Terry Green.  He is obviously a very good instructor of form and his form is certainly inline (his shoulders and string arm are straight), however I have a question.  His head seems to be moving back in the youtube video.  He is very straight, but unless the camera is moving, his head seems to be moving back as he anchors and releases.  Can Terry or someone comment on this?j

Thanks

[IB]

Yes, my head is ahead of center before I draw, and I start moving it back to center as I near anchor.

I never new I did that till I filmed myself.

(Terry on Vance's computer in WY)

[Allan Hundeby]

@Terry, it's amazing what we can learn about ourselves when we get a different perspective.  I'm hoping you all can give some to ME.

Well...  As far as form, currently I shoot best with no bow-cant, split finger, with index finger in the corner of my mouth), but even after finding some good advice on this thread (especically from O.L.):    http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004096  
I'm still having a tuning problem:

**My bareshafts are hitting low by about 8-12" @ 25yds, and to the right by 8-10" of my fletched shafts.  My plan was to find the correct brace height and string nock-point, then tune for tip weight/shaft length, but I can't seem to RAISE the impact point of the bareshafts.  As you'll see below, I think I've gone as low as I can go with string-nock without starting to get a false-nock-high.  My guess is brace height might be an issue: I was never able to find a "sweet spot". (Are there any threads/videos here about how to "find" the correct Brace Height?)

I don't know what info some of you would ask of me, so here's all I know:

Recurve Specs:
62" Bob Lee T/D Hunter; 49# @ 28"
Draw Length: ~29.5"
Brace Height: tried a range from 7.5" ~ 8.5"
String Nock: started high at 3/4", and moved down in 1/32" increments; currently at 1/4"
Shelf/Plate material: fuzzy-side velcro, with channel left for quill
String: Chad Weaver 10-strand Dynaflight; padded loops
Silencers: Brush buttons and 4x cat-whiskers at 1/4 marks along string.

Arrow Specs:
Shaft: CX Maxima Hunter 350's; started full-length
Wrap: 6" 4mil
Fletching: 3-fletch AMG 4" parabolic R-helical
Nocks: standard CX nocks (almost loost on the string)
Inserts: 100gr. brass
Points: It's important to me to get broadheads the same weight as Judo points (or Kondors).  I would eventually "like" to shoot my 160gr. Grizzly's (with filed down single-bevel to 145gr.) along with some 145gr. Kondors - either with 75 grain steel inserts or 20gr. aluminum inserts.  I started  with light field tips (100gr) and moved up in weight as I cut shafts shorter in 1/4" increments to compensate.

Should I first nail down the brace height?  Or  be looking for a flaw in the bow?  (i.e. twisted limbs? weird tiller? etc...)  Should I forget about nock-point for now, and make sure they're spined correclyt with preferred tips before adjusting nock height?

I hope I'm not one of those shooters (who Ken Beck refers to in MOTB2) who can never achieve correct string-nock height.  
 
The strange thing is: I don't think the problem is my shooting form, because I was able to get my Chek-Mate Falcon shooting 4-5" bareshaft/fletched groups at 25yds.  (For me, that's good!)  I could certainly hunt with the Falcon, but I want to get my take-down set
up for a tropical hunt at Christmas.

Any help is appreciated!

[SHOOTO8S]

Allan...with a static spine of .345 and the bow specs you listed, I'll bet the CE350's are too stiff even with 100 gr inserts and 145 pts. Whats likey happening is the shaft doesn;t deflect enough to clear the shelf  and on contact the rear of your bareshaft is being kicked up and to the left...which would account for the low, right impact. Spray foot powder applied to the shelf or rest, would tell for sure.

Contact with the shelf and the resulting false weak reaction has tricked a lot of shooters into trimming their arrow's, when they were too stiff to start with!

[Ray_G]

Rod,

Will an underspined arrow show / do the same thing as you stated?  Another words, does it oscillate fast enough to come back and slap the side of the shelf above the hand?  

I have used painter's tape (blue) with crayon rubbed on it to see the strike.  It takes it off the tape and it shows on the wrap or front of the fletch base.

Ray

[SHOOTO8S]

Originally posted by Ray_G:
Rod,

Will an underspined arrow show / do the same thing as you stated?  Another words, does it oscillate fast enough to come back and slap the side of the shelf

Ray

Ray, I'm always reluctant to say never when it comes to tuning...and I suppose with a overly high brace and perhaps some bowhand torque issues, it may be possible...but I've never seen a  weak shaft paradox quickly enough to strike the riser.

[Ray_G]

Rod,

I wondered about that.  Earlier this Summer, I was trying to tune my first trad bow in 37 years.  I was getting a big kick (LH shooter) to the right.  Arrows were left and low into the bales.  That is when I came up with the tape and crayon thing.  Someone told me to continue raising my nocking point.  I was up around 7/8" when I quit raising it with poor results.

My shafts were as short as I cared to go at 1" over draw length.  Reducing point weight improved the situation but noise increased and the arrows were just at 9 gpi, fletched and points on.

Long story short, I changed to the next spine range up, lowered my nocking point to 3/8" and am now getting good flight.  Still a little bit of tuning to do but at least they are flying to where I look.  Arrow weight is up to where I can be confident hunting with them around 10.5 gpi and the bow is quiet.

Form and release is still being improved but I am sure that they were a component of the poor flight with the underspined arrows as I have shot both sets side by side and flight is still poor with the weaker ones.  Bow hand placement was an issue as well.

thank you for your thoughts.

Ray

[Allan Hundeby]

Originally posted by SHOOTO8S:
Allan...with a static spine of .345 and the bow specs you listed, I'll bet the CE350's are too stiff even with 100 gr inserts and 145 pts. Whats likey happening is the shaft doesn;t deflect enough to clear the shelf  and on contact the rear of your bareshaft is being kicked up and to the left....

Thanks for your reply, Rod.  That was definitely my thought at first too, but here is what stumped me:

For a test, I loaded up various lengths of CX 4560's, CX 300's, CX Heritage 250's with tips ranging from 100grains to 300 grains.  Even though the "charts" suggested even 250's would be too stiff, ALL my arrows looked like they were showing weak (to the right).  That's when I thought it couldn't be possible, and I must have missed something.

Also, I install  100gr. brass inserts on all the shaft types, except for ONE bareshaft of each type: here I hot-melt a regular 15gr. aluminum insert... to give me a "head's up" as to when the arrows are starting to show stiff.  Well
after trying to tune in the Bob Lee, and "almost" giving up, my buddy suggested I try my CHek-Mate.  Lo-and-behold, the shorter, aluminum inserted CX 250 shaft was showing stiff... by about 10 inches.