Learning trajectory

[2Blade]

Im having a little trouble learning the trajectory of my arrow. I read in Jay Kidwells book that watching the flight of your arrow is important when shooting instinctively.

 My problem is I get so honed in on my spot that when I release I never see the arrow during flight or if I do its not long enough to learn anything. Ive tried bright fletches and even with my flu flus its hard to pick them up. How do you guys do it?

From what I understand you should be able to see your arrows flight in your mind and I just cant so I know I need to fix this. Any suggestions?

[Terry Green]

Keep shooting with bright feathers and watching your 'spot'.  You brain is recording the flight via your peripheral vision whether you realize it or not.

It wont happen over night though...and takes lots of arrows at different distances to get it all programed.

[reddogge]

Move back from the target.  Eventually you should see your arrow fly towards it, certainly around 30-40 yards or so.

Or wrap some tracer fur to the nock end of it.

[GANDGOLF]

What about a lighted nock?? Jus' wondering???

[dragon rider]

2Blade,

Don't have any help to offer.  It's just nice to know that I'm not the only one who reads Kidwell and then when shooting finds himself saying "OK, Jay - great theory, but how the hell do you actually do it?"

[sdpeb1]

When I moved up from 43# to 51# bow I had a hard time seeing arrow flight,but as I shot more I could see it better. I think lighted nock might work but I think it might defeat the purpose of instinctive shooting(maybe). One thing you don't want to do if your learning instinctive(imo)is  shoot the same distance more than one time. I shoot at approx. distances of 15,20 and 25yrds, and I mix those up, 3 arrows 3 shots. When you can group these together you are shooting "instinctive" method pretty well. I think what Terry says is true, you might not think you see but maybe your brain is picking it out, or maybe you just get to know what the sight picture needs to look like at a certain distance, or maybe your mind is subconsciously learning to gap shoot. One thing is for sure you need to shoot alot to shoot instinctive. Fortunately I can shoot everyday, for those who can only shoot a couple of times a week I don't see how you could ever get good enough to hunt with this method. When I started trad a couple of years ago I thought instinctive was the way to go, it sounded cool. Now I'm having some doubts. I've never "consciously" looked at my gap or the tip of my arrow. Today I was talking to my brother and he's going to give gap a try. I'm interested in hearing the results.- Steve

[2Blade]

Thats comforting to know that my mind is recording the trajectory even though im not aware. Ill keep on shooting and see what happends my accuracy isnt that bad I was concerned that this was something I had to really get a hand on.

[Terry Green]

Yep...I've read Jay's book....and its been a while and I need to read it again.  Great book for sure.

[Col]

I rarely see my arrow in flight, and I use some pretty atrocious colors.  Usually trying to follow the arrow's flight jacks-up my release.  Something I've got to work on I suppose.

My personal plan is to learn more than one shooting method.  

I'm a pretty fair instinctive shooter.  I defaulted to instinctive because I can't consciously estimate distance worth a dang.

Recently I started checking my gap after getting settled to release.  I noticed straight away that I'll have to re-orient my range to accomplish the basics of learning gap shooting; currently my range involves shooting uphill, downhill, and on the level from the typical, standard distances.  This led to the gap looking the same from different distances due to my target being below, above, and level with me.  Oh, the wonders of topography & trajectory!

Sometime in the future I'll play with facewalking, just so I can stretch-out a little and have some fun with the butts at extreme ranges.  

For now, I'm cool enough with my proficiency for instinctive shooting at (what I consider) ethical distances to start exploring other aiming techniques for enhancing my accuracy...if it works out, I'll let you know!

Hunting is secondary to the enjoyment I get from shooting, and the kids love it when I show my stuff from all kinds of awkward positions, including laying down.  Their cheers more than compensate for any inaccuracy on my part; if I hit the target at all they go nuts!  

But, as much as I enjoy the whole zen aspect of instinctive, I can see the value of learning more than one aiming system.  At the least it helps me help, or understand others' perspectives better.

[LocDoc]

Use bright fletching and at release, a gentle shift of attention to the arrow as it flies. Long range target practice makes this easier.
To be honest, I have never found it a hard thing to do (at a distance)
Short range with a fast bow could be a problem.

[Terry Green]

Just make sure you don't start 'peeking' at the arrow....this will cause you to move yourself out of alignment at release....dropping your bow arm, and altering your follow through.  Let the subconscious/peripheral vision do its work.

Again, it aint gonna happen over night.

[Diamond Paul]

Shoot at longer ranges; it's hard to really "see" the trajectory at close range.  Like Terry said, your mind does see it, even if you aren't aware of it, but at 40yds and beyond, you've got time to be aware of it.

[J-KID]

Nick - Read all Terry's posts on this thread.  They are right on the money.

Your brain is recording the flight of the arrow regardless of whether or not you are consciously aware of it.  However, telling your brain that the flight of the arrow IS IMPORTANT will cause the subconscious to pay more attention and improvement will accelerate.

People have a similar questions about the "button" technique in the book.  Some tell me that that can't visualize a button.  The truth is they don't have to have a concrete image of the button.  Just knowing where it is on the target creates a constant and takes care of stimulus confusion.

I've talked to a lot of shooters regarding the techniques in the book and I've discovered that more explanation and more examples would communicate the ideas more effectively to more shooters.  Until I get the urge to revise the book feel free to drop me a line about any questions you have.  I'll try and clarify.

[SHOOTO8S]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
Just make sure you don't start 'peeking' at the arrow

I've seen this problem with several shooters....making seeing the arrow trajectory a priority vs total focus on target ends up with the shooter getting prepared to "peek" faster and faster, until the "peek" and letgo happen at the same time or the "peek" starts before the letgo..which ain't pretty    I've seen a couple shooters peek fast enough to peek and then get back to target fast enough and swear they weren't peeking...but slomo film tells all ...lol

[Stagmitis]

J-Kid said:

"However, telling your brain that the flight of the arrow IS IMPORTANT will cause the subconscious to pay more attention and improvement will accelerate."


As stated above by J-Kid the mind needs to pay MORE ATTENTION to the arrow because if it doesn`t..Well, it CANNOT even begin to visualize its trajectory.  

Once an archer pays attention to the arrow flight and TRAINS the MIND so the SUBCONCIOUS doesnt BURY the ARROW completely, then visualization can become a very powerfull and invaluable tool for determining elevation...It works At ALL distances and under open or obstructed target conditions....

However, visualization needs this basic principle to work......There needs to be a "Beginning"(Where the archer stands) and an "end" (the target itself)..

If an archer visualizes a shot and  has disciplined their mind under "instinctive" shooting principles(burying the arrow so deep in the subconcious that it dissapears) then the ONLY part of the visualization process that will have familiarity is the "End" or the target itself...The archer will FAIL becuase they have no reference at full draw to "Begin" the arrow for the appropriate trajectory they just imagined.

Again as J-Kid stated above:

"However, telling your brain that the flight of the arrow IS IMPORTANT will cause the subconscious to pay more attention and improvement will accelerate.".....

I can rationalize how a "Split-Vision" archer  can accomplish the task of visualization because they train the brain to allow the subconcious to be aware of the arrow in their periferal vision.

But my question is:

How can one accomplish the task of visualization if they train the brain to allow the subconcious eliminate the arrow in their periferal vision?

[Don Stokes]

There's such a thing as thinking about it too much...

[Stagmitis]

Explaining how something is done compared to the actual act of doing are seperate...

A SPLIT second to visualize trajectory, No MORE than two seconds to draw the bow and NO MORE than two seconds to aim and shoot the arrow....Cut that in HALF for a fully trained archer..

Is thinking a 2-4 seconds or LESS "thinking about it too much?"

[McDave]

Stagmitis,

"How can one accomplish the task of visualization if they train the brain to allow the subconcious eliminate the arrow in their periferal vision?"

I think there's a subtle difference between the question you're asking and what Kidwell said:

"However, telling your brain that the flight of the arrow IS IMPORTANT will cause the subconscious to pay more attention and improvement will accelerate."

I don't think Kidwell would disagree with an instinctive archer training himself to eliminate seeing the tip of the arrow in his CONSCIOUS vision, prior to releasing the arrow.  Kidwell also says that you should observe the flight of the arrow to the target.  In saying that, I don't think he would disagree with those who say that trying too hard to do that on a conscious level can cause other parts of the shot to suffer.  So what he offers as an alternative is to instruct the subconscious that the flight of the arrow is important.  Sort of like having your cake and eating it too:  you avoid the distractions caused by focusing overly much on the flight of the arrow consciously, while still getting some learning benefit from doing that on a subconscious level.  

How does that happen?  The subconscious is a funny thing; no doubt Kidwell understands it; I sure don't.  It almost seems like a different brain that has thoughts of its own that sometimes helps me and other times hurts me.  A brain that we have to 'splain things to in a language it understands, rather than in a way that would make more sense to our conscious minds.

Our eyes see everything in our field of vision.  Our conscious brain filters out things that aren't important to whatever it is that we're trying to do, which is why we can consciously decide to ignore, or more than ignore, actually not see, the tip of the arrow.  I think what Kidwell is saying is that even though we may filter it out on a conscious level, our subsconcious can be told that the flight of the arrow is important and still "sees" it on that level.

Certainly the benefits of filtering out the arrow tip prior to release can't be ignored.  Great instinctive archers like Rick Welch practice that, teach it, hunt that way, and win world championships using it.  Frankly, before taking Rick's class, I enjoyed instinctive archery, but I never thought I would be capable of shooting consistently accurately with it.  In the course of a day and a half, he taught me that I could.

[Don Stokes]

Stagmitis, what I meant was that concentrating on trying to see the trajectory might interfere with developing the "instinctive" viewing and the remembering of the arrow's trajectory. A Zen-like thing- trying too hard can get in the way of achieving the objective.

If your equipment is matched and your form is good, practice, practice, practice and you learn to judge the trajectory without trying. To me, that's the essence of instinctive shooting. Analysis of the methodology is good up to a point, but nothing can substitute for quality repetition in programming the archer's brain.

Re seeing or not seeing the arrow, I thought I didn't pay any attention to the arrow until late one afternoon when I was shooting aluminum cans in my back yard with two judo arrows. One was finished without stain, and was very light in color. The other was tinted with a dark stain. As the light failed, I realized I had begun hitting much better with the light finished arrow, even though I wasn't conscious of looking at it at any point in the act of shooting. Since then, all of my hunting arrows have a light finish for that magic first and last half-hour of the hunting day.