Elbow angle & sting hand follow through

[xtrema312]

I have been looking at a lot of reviews on form and looking at you tube video on archer form including Olympic style archery.  I was thinking good form was having the draw arm and elbow in line with the arrow from the side view.  I tend to shoot with a higher elbow angle.  I can't seem to get my forearm completely in line with the arrow.  I see a lot of Olympic archers have a higher elbow as well.  How critical is vertical forearm alignment with the arrow from the side view? Is a higher elbow desirable?

The other thing I am working on is forearm alignment with the arrow from the top view and string hand follow-through.  I am having a hard time videoing from above, but what I can see from the back and side I notice my draw hand tends to fly out away from my face most of the time.  It goes back also, but out to the side more.  Is this an indication that my elbow is not in line with the arrow, lack of proper back tension, or both?

[moebow]

x-312,  Elbow a little high as viewed from the front is OK, just don't over - do it.  Viewed from above String arm elbow, string hand, arrow and bow hand should be "dead" straight.

[McDave]

I just attended Rod Jenkins's seminar in Hood River, Oregon, and he addressed both of these issues.

Don't worry about the high elbow when looking at the arrow from a side view.  A high elbow actually helps develop good back tension.  The problem with a high elbow is if you're using split fingers, your index finger may be pressing down on the arrow nock, which could cause it to rebound on release.  If you're using 3 under, this won't happen.  I presume there are ways to keep it from happening if you're using split fingers also, but since I use 3 under, I haven't bothered to find them out.

On the other hand, you should definitely worry about coming to full draw, and good back tension.  At full draw, your drawing forearm should be in line with the arrow, viewed from the above.  If it's not in line using your normal anchor, you may need to move the anchor back some.  For example, you may need to move your anchor from index finger in the corner of your mouth to thumb hooked behind your jaw bone.

The main emphasis of the class was developing good back tension and a subconscious (surprise) release.  When you have achieved this, your drawing hand should move backwards after releasing the arrow, not to the side.

Out of a dozen or so experienced archers in the class, none of us were really maximizing our back tension, until we went through the drills with Rod, including use of the Formaster.

Some of us didn't have a problem with the subconscious release, but about half of the class did, and had to work on increasing their back tension, by drawing their shoulder blades together, to initiate the surprise release.  The key is to never stop pulling the bow until the arrow is released.  You can still be pulling the bow when the arrow is no longer being drawn backwards (your pull backwards equals the pull of the bow forward), in order to allow you time to pause  before your shot, but there should never be a collapse of back tension, such that the arrow creeps forward at full draw.

Rod discusses this in MBB III, which I recommend to you, but seeing it on video is not as real as being shown that you are not doing something you think you're doing in person.

[Walt Francis]

A little higher elbow can make it easier to rotate the arm around/back using you back muscles.  If you read and look at some of Terry's alignment pictures in the form clock thread his elbow is a little high.  At his shooting clinic in Oregon Rod Jenkins had me raise my elbow a little to help increase the amount of back tension I use.  Before Rod’s clinic I had recently switched to shooting left-handed and had used video to ingrain keeping the arm aligned with the arrow (side view) throughout the shot sequence.  Now when I reach anchor the arm is still aligned with the arrow, but when I commit to the shot, I raise my elbow about half an inch and start my expansion phase of the shot; It is a trigger to reach conclusion.

If you are in alignment and using back tension the hand should come directly back to your neck/shoulder.  However, if you watch Rick Welch shoot, his hand flies away from is face them back, not many people can get away with letting their hand fly like he does.  Try and get some video from the top and and post it, those more qualified them myself will be able to give some good advise.

This is what I did to get video from the top:  
I took my camera down to the hardware store and found an 1 ¾” screw that fit the mounting threads of my camera (1/4 x 20, I think but can’t remember for sure) and a nut, drilled ¼” hole in the center of a six inch piece of 2”x4”, and then used a hammer to set the head of the screw flush with the wood: the screw sticks out about 3/8 of an inch.  Next, I used two 3” wood screws to attach the block of wood to the soffit in my garage, put the nut on the screw, and then screwed my camera onto the screw four or five full turns.  After getting the lens pointed strait down I snug the nut against the back of the camera, which prevents it from turning.  To get a full view of my shooting alignment on the camera I have to shoot from my knees.  You can put the block of wood on any vertical surface you can shoot under, but the lower the camera is the easier it is to operate.  Total cost for my top view camera holder was 6 cents for the machine screw, the rest of the material I had in the garage.

[Walt Francis]

Hi Dave, guess we were writing at the same time.  

[McDave]

Hi Walt!

Rick Welch uses a dead release, meaning that he has just enough back tension to overcome the forward pull of the bow, but not enough back tension to cause his drawing hand to recoil backwards when he shoots the arrow.  If you look closely at his hand when he releases the bow, you will see his fingers fly away from his face, and sometimes his hand will follow his fingers, because his drawing hand is so relaxed that it just flops when the arrow is released, but his forearm remains solidly in place.  Rick believes, like everybody else does, that a loss of back tension will cause creeping forward of the string hand, plucking of the string on release, and a generally plucked-up shot.  In fact, Rick has said that he thinks the main reason he didn't do better in the most recent World's was because he kept losing his back tension because of a pinched nerve in his neck.

I believe his method works better for him than using excessive back tension, which would cause his hand to recoil backwards, because there is less going on when he releases the arrow.  In any event, it is clear that it does work better for him, whatever the reason might be.

Whether it would work better for the rest of us depends, I think, on whether you can control your back tension so precisely that it will just offset the pull of the bow without your string hand creeping forward at full draw.  Excessive back tension seems to work better for me, because whatever accuracy I might lose by the extra movement going on when I release the shot is more than offset because I don't have the complete control necessary to precisely hold the exact amount of back tension necessary for a dead release without creep.

One thing that Rick Welch and Rod Jenkins both agree on is that the release must be a surprise, and not initiated by letting go with the string fingers.

[xtrema312]

Thanks for the info.  I am working on setting something up for a higher video shot so we will see.  I also thought about putting the camera near the ground and shooting up so I can see the arrow, bow hand and elbow that way.  I don’t know if I can get a good angle and wide view that way or not.

I do tend to get a sore index finger from pressure on the arrow nock.  I shoot split finger.  I shoot one short 56” bow and a 62” LB.  I thought it was more from the short bow, but there are days I don’t have any issues with it.  Other days I really feel it no matter which bow I shoot.  I am thinking that is higher elbow now or maybe a combination of that and string finger pressure differences.

I typically go to anchor then continue to creep just a little back for the shot.  At times I have gone forward waiting to settle in of the shot, but then increase pull to expand again  for release.  My hand always goes back some amount depending on how hard I am pulling.  It is the out to the side I was concerned about.  Often it is just my hand and not my arm.  I will know more when I get a low or high video to see.

Last night I was using a mirror to check arm alignment without the bow.  It felt like I was back more than typical when in line.  I try to target about 28-28.5” of draw length based on compound bow draw length, measurement methods, and everyone saying you should drop draw length with trad bows; I shoot 28.5 on a compound.  I use knuckle in the jaw and index on the edge of the cheek bone.  If I use corner of mouth I hit my face or feel all bunched up.  I think I need a longer draw.  I went out in low light and shot a few more arrows with like a 29-29.25” draw.  My arrow was on the shelf.  My hand came back better and my groups were good for almost dark and tired after a long practice.  I am only 5’-10”, but I have wide shoulders so maybe I do have a longer than average for my height draw.  I am going to try and shoot some video tonight with a longer draw and see what I get.

[McDave]

It's important to have the correct draw length, as problems can develop from underdrawing or overdrawing the bow, so it's worth your while to figure it out.

If you're getting finger pinch, or pressure on your index finger, it would probably be better to get your forearm more in line with the arrow viewed from the side, even though there are some advantages to a high elbow.

[Walt Francis]

Todd,
I think to get a good view of your alignment at full draw you need to see it from above.

For comparision,I am 5'9" and draw 28.75-29 inches.

I believe the reason most people lose and inch or two in draw length when switching from compounds to traditional bows is because they scrunch up, causing poor form and bad alignment.  Most people become a considerably less accurate too.  If you think about it, when you get rid of the release your arrow and draw length should increase, not decrease, if you maintain the same form and alignment.

One question for you, and every body else for that matter, if you had good form, alignment, and most important accuracy, when shooting a compound, why change when shooting a longbow or recurve?  Is it to fit somebody’s version or idea of what they think is the “traditional or instinctive” way to shoot?  You might want to look at the photographs or film/video of Art Young, Saxton Pope, Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, and many of the other old timers to see how they shot the bow.  One thing you see in every one of them, they had a consistent form and good alignment which resulted in them being accurate.  The thing I see a lot of the past twenty years is bad form and alignment, which has resulted in inconsistent and poor accuracy.  Don’t get me wrong, I bought into the scrunched up shorter drawing style that became popular in the early 1990’s, until I decided it was more important to be consistently accurate and get the full power stroke from a bow then to look fashionable using what is now popularly considered the “traditional” version of shooting a bow.

One last thought, that took me a while to realize, it is a lot faster and easier to learn to shoot accurately using the instinctive sighting method with proper form and alignment.

[dragon rider]

Somewhere in all of the collected wisdom on here, I remember seeing something from Terry Green to the effect that it's only when your elbow gets above about 10 o'clock that it starts to cause trouble.  Up to the point, if I remember correctly, he saw no problem with a somewhat elevated elbow.  Personally I find that drawing back straight and elevating my elbow to about 10, maybe a little under, as I come to anchor helps lock my back tension in - or, put another way, helps prevent the dreaded draw hand creep.  I shoot three under so there's no nock pinch issue.

[xtrema312]

I just read a post last night under the form clock thread about the no more than 10 o'clock high.  That is a good point, thanks.

I have been videoing the last two days.  I think the 29" draw has helped a lot.  Now if I can just figure out how to get the video edited and posted I will get it posted.

I still have some hand fly out, but it is back and out.  It is not on every shot.  I think it could be my fingers not being as relaxed on release as they should be.  My back of hand is relaxed, but I noticed on the video that my fingers were still curled after release on the fly outs.  My elbow angel is lower with the longer draw.  I got some high angle shots and I think my form is good.  My draw arm is in line with the arrow and I think my shoulders are parallel to my arrow also.  I seem to be shooting more consistent.