Teach Instinctive ???

[LongStick64]

After going through my catalogs, websites and all, is it really possible to teach instrinctive. I can understand of course form. That's one thing but that "instinctive feel" knowing that you are on target without conscious aiming, can you really teach that, from a book or video ?

[Lechwe]

I think when you learn to have "consistent" form and focus hard on that part of the shooting the unconscious aiming starts to take care of itself.

[Wapiti Bowman]

I think the simple answer to your question, is no, you can't learn to instinctively know where your bow arm needs to go to hit the target from any given position from a book or DVD. What you can learn from books and DVDs is how to go about letting your mind learn the arc of the arrow, as that's the accepted basis for shooting instinctively.

And, as Asbell says, it does take many hours of repetitive shooting from different distances for your mind to learn what arc is necessary in order to "instinctively", or, if you will, "subconsciously" place your bow arm at the right position to hit the target from any distance.

Once your mind has done it's learning, your conscious thoughts only concern is to focus completely, and totally on the intended impact point without any thought given as to where you should be pointing your arrow. Your subconscious mind will "instinctively" do that for you.

The one factor really necessary in teaching your mind the necessary arc, is the ability to see your arrow in flight during your hours of practice.

Of course all of this is MHO, and is worth exactly what you paid for it, for what it's worth!  

[McDave]

I agree with Wapiti, so far as instinctive aiming is concerned.

However, good form is 90% or 99% of what you need in order to shoot the bow accurately, and good form is the same regardless of your aiming method.  And you can learn good form from books, videos, and personal instruction.

You can shoot arrows and watch their arcs until you are blue in the face, concentrate on the spot you want to hit until you burn a hole in it by the force of your mental energy alone, and still scatter arrows all over the target until you learn good form.

[LongStick64]

My point is that there is so much emphasis of just focusing on your target and like magic your instinctive sense will guide your form, Come on. It doesn't work that way. Solid repeatable form and unconscious aiming....I believe everyone who says they shoot instinctive never mentions this, they are aiming, just not focusing on it as much as someone else that does.
What started me is when I read the advice and see first hand instruction when a newbie is told to just stare at the point they want to hit and they'll hit it. Well sugar of course you will at 5 yards, let's see if you can pull it off at 20. New archers should be taught form first, not magic.

[cbCrow]

Can anybody tell me who taught the Indians there form or did they get a little instruction from an elder and than do. Too many people put far too much emphasis on form, you either have it or you don,t. I once witnessed a guy shoot an arrow at different targets thrown from the people in the crowd. He hit everyone one of them when I asked how is that done he said full total concentration on the target is first all other things will fall in place. His form was by some standards terrible, mine included. He did not always square himself, come to full anchor, or full draw, but man he could shoot. He was also one of the most successfull hunters in our club. This is one "sport",in my opinion, where repetition is one key while concentration is first. Just food for thought.

[moebow]

cb,  I often see you weigh in on this topic.  Here is my "take" on it.  I will be the first to say that there are many truly good sports performers that don't do it "by the book".  It doesn't matter what sport -- archery, golf, tennis, you name it.  I for one shot for many years as a self taught archer.  I had no one to help or coach me.  In fact, I was 40 years old before I even met another person that shot a bow seriously. Up to that point the folks I knew were "playing bows and arrows" once in a while.

Most of us, who are trying to really help new comers to the sport, need a structured system to help them get started.  To help them use the best muscle groups for the shot, to prevent injury in the long term and to help them enjoy a higher and faster success rate than is or was possible with the self taught system.

Who taught the Indians/Mongols/English/Samuri archers???  I do not know!  Did they use NTS form?  I don't know (probably not)!  Were they good (by what standard)?  I don't know!  Were they able to do what they needed?  Without a doubt!

I am reminded of the musical "The Music Man".  Professor Harold Gray came to town and started a band with the "think system".  He said that you could whistle a tune without knowing music. So you should be able to play it on an instrument.  Welllll, yes you can.  And some protegies can play anything they hear on a piano (some unkindly people call those folks "idiot savants").  The human is an incredible thing that can adapt and over come and make things work. But...

For most folks, having a structure and pattern to follow when learning, shortens the learning curve and usually leads to better/higher performance levels at a faster pace than just stumbling through the process and hoping that the think system will take them to the level that they will be happy with.

Frankly, I tell my students that if they will work on form and blank bale shooting for the first two months, I'll have them hitting the target in three.  Hitting the target is the easy part, being able to do it more than once in a while takes a repeatable and correctable form.

Again, is this the only way?  NOOOO!!!! It is just a consistent way to do the best for the beginner or to improve an experienced archer that wants to shoot better than he/she is currently shooting.

As far as I'm concerned we CANNOT put too much emphasis on form!!!!!

[LongStick64]

How do you teach someone to concentrate without first teaching them the basics of form ???
Up and down the shooting line you will see differences in form but the most successful archers maintain form principles.

[moebow]

By the way, I'm informed that it was Harold Hill not Harold Gray as the character in the Music man.  But form is still form.

[cbCrow]

Moebow, thanks for responding. First the man I was referring to was not a performer, he was just a member of our club who did his bit on family day to entertain. I agree with some of what you say in that the fact that the average person needs to have someone show them the proper way to shoot, but isn't baling repetitious? Does doing it blind, not do nothing but force their full concentration thus setting the stage when they must than learn to fully concentrate their focus to their target. You state that hitting the target is easy but repeating is harder, I fully agreed! That is why you need to to focus your concentration. If you read what I said you would have seen that we are saying the same thing only differently. Did you read"did they get a little instruction from an elder than do". What I meant was that they were shown the basics than started applying what they had learned, nothing more. I just feel that there is too much talking up form on here when their are other facets and nuances to archery. You say that people need 'Structure and pattern" to learn, I disagree and you are a prime example. You said that you were self taught, my goodness how did you ever learn. You and I know how, you perservered because you wanted to. I am no expert but as I said before there are just too many things to archery to make it about just one thing.

[moebow]

I was self taught but I became an archer AFTER I learned proper form.  I could shoot back then but always felt that there was more to it.  Found out that there was.  I don't disagree that the blank/blind bale form work can be exceptionally boring after awhile but that is when you can start working on focus on the target and let your subconscious run the shot.  I truly believe that there is a "walk before you run" sequence involved in learning archery or any other thing.

[LongStick64]

I don't think you can name one sport where "coaching" and learning to execute the fundamentals don't count. Or better yet don't enhance one's ability to succeed. Just winging it and leaving it to lady luck, is no sure way to success. In fact I would bet more probably meet failure that way and have given up the sport because they get to a certain point and cannot progress.

[cbCrow]

I WAS an archer,when at 12yrs. old, I loosed my first arrow at a target and saw its flight. Been an archer ever since! I think the problem is the word concentration and its meaning. It is one of the simplest things to do but also one of the hardest. Being from the school that if something is worth doing than do it right,I think baling is an excellent way to start the learning of concentration. As I have already stated every new archer needs someone to help them, but I believe it is really up to the person to carry the ball. I have shown and assisted a few people in my years of shooting how to use a bow. The very first thing I always tell when they ask how to is about concentration and desire. To me shooting at nothing but a blank bale is something that should be used with full concentation of only one aspect of the shot, be release, anchor, back tension, etc. and for a short time as concentration wanes after  prolonged doing. Every time I shoot I bale for 9-12 arrows on one specific aspect of the shot, today is Monday so it is release, thaT helps me to focus all my concentration on it and only that. Only shooting one arrow I proceed to shoot between 25-35 arrows from varying distances ranging from 5-22yds. By doing this I only have to focus my attention to my target and concentrate getting the arrow from A to B. While not being perfect every time I find that I am usually within an inch or two of my mark. I also find that on some days my concentration is not "as strong" so just pack it in early, because full concentration and attention is needed.This is also what I show people when asked to help, it gives them work and reward as they start to hit where they are looking. As far as naming a sport where coaching is not required I can't but what other sport is their where there is only you. No team can get that arrow there only you. As I stated before form is important but so are all the other aspects of archery of equal importance. For fun google "Ishi shooting a bow"