Shooters Forum

Contribute to Trad Gang
Become a Trad Gang Sponsor



Author Topic: Expansion  (Read 1090 times)

Offline Jock Whisky

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 536
Expansion
« on: September 29, 2011, 10:55:00 PM »
I hear people talking about expanding thru the shot. I think I know what this is but could someone explain their version of it

JW
Old doesn't start until you hit three figures...and then it's negotiable

Offline moebow

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 2509
Re: Expansion
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 08:44:00 AM »
Jock,

Expansion is defined as "the small internal turning and increase of holding intensity to displace the arrow through the clicker."  This definition is directly out of KiSec Lee's "Total Archery - Inside the Archer."

For those of us that do not use a clicker that may not help too much so let me give you my take on it.  When you reach full draw and have your bone on bone alignment  and the weight of the bow in your back muscles, expansion is a final increase of back tension that keeps the arrow moving back (the opposite of collapse).  It is a VERY SMALL movement that can really only be seen by stop action video.  I think of it as "sticking my chest out a little as I begin to relax my string fingers. Another way to think of it is to pull your string shoulder back a little more which increases your back tension. Expansion is what gives the final input that causes your string hand to release and move back in the correct direction.  "Expansion is the first part of the follow through."  It happens in conjunction with the release. It is also the single MOST important part of form that determines the strength, speed and direction of the follow through.

As in most things, this is much easier to show and demonstrate than to write.
11 H Hill bows
3 David Miller bows
4 James Berry bows
USA Archery, Level 4 NTS Coach

Are you willing to give up what you are; to become what you could be?

Offline Red Tailed Hawk

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 1347
Re: Expansion
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2011, 10:56:00 AM »
A very good description Moebow.
I'm drinking from a saucer 'cause my cup has overflowed

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28715
Re: Expansion
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2011, 07:35:00 PM »
For me, it can be seen without stop start action.....its when you elbow comes 'around'(not just straight back) making the 'J', causing proper alignment to be set and back tension acquired. And, the tension on the string to continues rearward causing a proper release and follow through.

     :campfire:
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28715
Re: Expansion
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 12:04:00 PM »
I'm beginning to see a pattern here that is not good for teaching folks...it only adds to confusion. Too many absolutes.
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline Ravenhood

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 143
Re: Expansion
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 12:17:00 PM »
Expansion is the first part of the follow through.  I love that thought, it is very easy to understand.  Thank you.  Mark.

Offline Javi

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 704
Re: Expansion
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 12:24:00 PM »
There is a huge difference between using the back muscles to draw and pull through the shot and the chest expansion used by many target archers to move the point past the clicker..

They are not the same although the target archer is using back tension to draw the bow and pull through the shot; the final movement through the clicker is not accomplished using the same muscles.  To do so would move you off the anchor.. It is a widening of the chest, not an increase in pulling with rearward motion of the drawing arm..  

Expansion is necessary for moving past a clicker, but unnecessary for loosing an arrow from anchor..

And for those who think the elbow moves straight back during a shot, try to do that without losing the line.. Stand with your back (shoulder blades flat against the wall) to a wall with your drawing arm in your anchor position.. Now try to move your elbow straight back….  The elbow/shoulder movement is around and down… not straight back..
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28715
Re: Expansion
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 12:38:00 PM »
CORRECT Javi....when the elbow comes 'around' like I stated above....it expands the chest!!!  Completing the 'J' is the expansion.

Thanks for another way to explain it.  Some times, no, most times, I'm in too big a hurry and don't get detailed enough.  Thanks again.
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline Javi

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 704
Re: Expansion
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 02:32:00 PM »
What many people describe as follow through of the draw arm is merely recoil from the load of the bow. As Newton’s third law states..  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
The rearward movement of the hand at release is directly proportionate to the amount of pull exerted on the bow string less the tension of the shoulder and arm and the range of motion one has in their scapula.. When choosing an anchor it is important to consider the range of motion (travel) one has in relationship to that anchor. Too little and the shot will not happen, too much and the arm is out of alignment with the arrow. The more relaxed the shoulder and arm the more recoil one will experience..
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28715
Re: Expansion
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 05:42:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Javi:
What many people describe as follow through of the draw arm is merely recoil from the load of the bow.
Yes....that's why when to see the O'LE!!! release hand that flies away from the face a foot as it comes back means the pressure has NOT come around...and that the release happened with the elbow and energy pointing for 4 to 5 oclock...the elbow is still coming back and around after the lose...and the follow though is a fly away release.

With the energy going directly away from the target, the release can only follow reward. However, I have seen folks consciously correct an incorrect follow through and touch their shoulder...it appears that they have a good follow through, but its only a false act.  The perfect follow through should just happen subconsciously.
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline Javi

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 704
Re: Expansion
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 07:03:00 PM »
I most often see the flying release, waving at the queen, Ole’ and other terms some more derogatory than others in association with either not using the back (active shoulder and arm muscles) to draw and pull through the shot or a release that flips open the fingers (turning loose of the string) instead of allowing the string to slip from the fingers… or a combination of both…  

People often misunderstand exactly what a deep hook means and fist, bow the wrist or fight the string which won’t allow the string to be loosed without a violent flipping or throwing open of the fingers. This coupled with a poorly aligned drawing arm or an overly high elbow will result in a change of direction for the recoil… The more relaxed the bow and release arm the smoother the release..

While it isn’t necessary to follow through to touch the shoulder; when the shooter is completely relaxed even down to the wrist that is what will usually result... Some people just cannot relax to that extent and that’s okay..

I usually tell my students that they can learn to shoot standing on one leg and hopping up and down IF they are willing to put in the practice.. All any coach or instructor can really do is build on the strengths and hope to correct the weakness but in the end it is our job to guide the individual to their realistic goals.. It may not be HOW we shoot but it should be the best for the student….
Mike "Javi" Cooper
TBoT Member

Offline Green

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 3003
Re: Expansion
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 07:15:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Javi:
I most often see the flying release, waving at the queen, Ole’ and other terms some more derogatory than others in association with either not using the back (active shoulder and arm muscles) to draw and pull through the shot or a release that flips open the fingers (turning loose of the string) instead of allowing the string to slip from the fingers… or a combination of both…  

People often misunderstand exactly what a deep hook means and fist, bow the wrist or fight the string which won’t allow the string to be loosed without a violent flipping or throwing open of the fingers. This coupled with a poorly aligned drawing arm or an overly high elbow will result in a change of direction for the recoil… The more relaxed the bow and release arm the smoother the release..

While it isn’t necessary to follow through to touch the shoulder; when the shooter is completely relaxed even down to the wrist that is what will usually result... Some people just cannot relax to that extent and that’s okay..

I usually tell my students that they can learn to shoot standing on one leg and hopping up and down IF they are willing to put in the practice.. All any coach or instructor can really do is build on the strengths and hope to correct the weakness but in the end it is our job to guide the individual to their realistic goals.. It may not be HOW we shoot but it should be the best for the student….
Hey!! I resemble those remarks!     :laughing:
ASL's, Selfbows, and Wood Arra's
Just because you are passionate about something, doesn't mean you don't suck at it.

Offline Terry Green

  • Administrator
  • Trad Bowhunter
  • ****
  • Posts: 28715
Re: Expansion
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 07:21:00 PM »
Good Stuff Javi.....    :campfire:
Tradbowhunting Video Store - https://digitalstore.tradgang.com/

Tradgang Bowhunting Merchandise - https://tradgang.creator-spring.com/?

Tradgang DVD - https://www.tradgang.com/tgstore/index.html

"It's important,  when going after a goal, to never lose sight of the integrity of the journey" - Andy Garcia

'An anchor point is not a destination, its  an evolution to conclusion'

Offline zetabow

  • Trad Bowhunter
  • **
  • Posts: 376
Re: Expansion
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2011, 08:43:00 PM »
For those shooting tourney I think if you were to put a clicker on your bow and learnt to use it correctly you would all see an improvement in scores, regardless of aiming method.

Although I'm not allowed to use a clicker in tourneys by visualizing myself expanding through a clicker has improved my shooting. A clicker is only allowed in IFAA Freestyle or Barebow Div.

If just for experimenting or practice you put a single pin sight on you bow you would learn to appreciate what continued back tension\\expansion does for you, as it allows you to maintain steady aim on target without drifting or figting to keep the pin on the target centre, even just my normal gapping I feel more settled on the gap/target when expanding through the shot,it also stops me anticipating the release as the expansion is what sets up the chain reaction for release.

Expansion also increses the chance of a better 50/50 Scapula balance during release,all that being said it will likely only give you an extra 10 points in a tourney so maybe only worth learning if you really desire to reach the top on the tourney circuit.

nicely described Moebow

Users currently browsing this topic:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
 

Contact Us | Trad Gang.com © | User Agreement

Copyright 2003 thru 2024 ~ Trad Gang.com ©