Best shooting form and tips DVD ?

[Aggieland]

Could someone advise me on what some of the best DVD's on the market are to help with shooting form etc. Thanks in advance.

[wv lungbuster]

Master's of the Bare Bow are the best ones I've found.

[McDave]

I agree with lungbuster about MBB, especially vol. 3.  Also, on this forum, look at Moebow's videos on "Rotational Drawing Technique" and "Release Tips."

[Green]

No video, no written word, no pictures can equal the wealth of information you'll get from a one on one coaching session with a qualified coach.

Aggieland....I'm assuming you're somewhere in the vicinity of Bryan/College Station.  Mike Cooper (Javi here on TG) is in Waco and is an excellent coach.  A few hours spent with Javi and you'll be on the right track to top notch form and accuracy.  

As a side note....maybe we ought to start a Coaching Referral thread here in the Shooter's Forum so that members might have a place to start to look for a qualified coach in their vicinity.

[Rick Richard]

I second that about a Coaching Referral thread!

[Aggieland]

I actually live about 1 hour north of Longview, Tx, near the small town of Hughes Springs. Anyone know of a coach up this direction?

[Green]

Casey - Give this thread a little time and I'll bet someone chimes in with a recommendation.  Also, I second the recommendation of hitting youtube and typing Moebow in the search bar....he's got several top notch instructional videos uploaded that you'll find to be of great help.  In addition, he's just a great coach and member who, if you'll email or pm him, will go far out of his way to help you with your shooting form.

It would be nice to hear from Moebow, Javi, McDave, et al about coaching qualifications, designations,etc. as to what members should look for in a coach in addition to a referral from another shooter/student.

[moebow]

Rob,

This thread has taken an interesting twist.  I hope that Casey (Aggieland) doesn't feel that we have "hijacked" his thread.  If we have Casey, let us know and we can start another thread.  That said, here are some thoughts regarding finding a coach/instructor that I have.

There is only one certifying agency for Archery coaches (in this country) that I'm aware of at the present time.  That is USA Archery.  The primary focus of USA Archery is the production of national, world and Olympic champions and because of this, their focus is on what we'd call "formal target" form.  Their ranking system is soon to be changed so I'll list the ratings that are currently being used followed by the new designators to be in place after the first of the year.

1.  Elite Coach (level 5)  
2.  Regional Coach (level 4)  
3.  Community Coach (level 3)  
4.  Intermediate instructor (level 2)
5.  Instructor (level 1)
There is also the designator of "Master Coach" but that is an honorary title given for student performance and only Regional or Elite coaches will have it.  You cannot take a class to get it.

These folks (especially the ones I listed as "coaches") are very knowledgeable in the form system known as BEST (Biomechanically Efficient Shooting Technique).  This form system allows the shooter to efficiently use his/her body to make the shot and is proven to REDUCE many of the injuries we see listed here frequently.  On the other hand, they (many of them) are not comfortable or conversant with our style of shooting so may be reluctant to work with a "swing draw" or "push/pull" style.  Here is the REALLY important thing to remember:  FORM IS FORM!!!!  Doesn't matter if you are an Olympian or a stump shooter!  YES, there are minor variations to the shooting technique but the basic efficient form is essentially the same!

You must do your homework when you talk to a USA Archery coach (OR ANY PROSPECTIVE COACH) to see if they and you are on the same wavelength when it comes to your needs.

There are many coaches out there, too,  that were coaches in the past that have really good instructional techniques that are VERY good and effective, they just don't maintain an "active" status anymore.  Again, you have to do your "homework" to see if there is a good compatibility between you and the coach.

I suggest that you be VERY VERY careful  if you select someone who's only claim is to have won LOTS of tournaments.  The ability to shoot top scores in any of the archery games out there DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY qualify someone to coach/instruct!!!!!!!  To use an example from golf (another individual sport) name ten instructors for the Pro tour players that have won a Pro tour event.  Name two.  See what I mean?  Top shooters may or may not have the knowledge or background to give instruction based on reducing injury, using a technique that allows unlimited improvement or fits the student's needs.  They often try to "sell" their version simply because it is what worked for them.  Your friend down the street or in the next town may have a better grasp on what you really need than the top shooters.  Don't miss-understand me here there ARE top shooters that can and do study the science of archery and are very good.  I'm just saying that a win or two (or a thousand) is not enough and is of less importance than the knowledge that comes from study and education in the sport.

Referrals from other shooters is a good place to start.  But I say again, do your homework, and if possible "interview" your prospective coach to see if you would like to "hire" them for a specific job.  Be prepared to explain exactly what it is you are looking for to improve your enjoyment of archery ( a good coach will ask that question).  You are probably going to "hire" them for your instruction and many will charge a fair amount so know what you are buying.

Well, that is what occurs to me for the moment.  Any other questions?

Arne

[BobCo 1965]

First the student should do a little digging within themselves. Think about what their personal goals are. Do they really want instruction or a coach? They are really two different things. Instruction can take place in a class type session or setting where the instructor(s) is acting as a facilitator. There should be some 1 to 1 instruction taking place but it will usually only be skills based. There are many JOAD programs around that will also take Adult members. Usually these sessions are about $5-10 per session. There are also achievement pins for adults through USA Archery. This type of instruction is what a lot of folks prefer.

 Coaching is much more individualized. My personal coach helps with goals, workout routines, nutrition, etc.

If I were looking for a coach, I would ask them what their coaching philosophy is (should only be a sentence or two).
My personal coaching philosophy: Coaching encompasses cultivation, trust, support, empathy, encouragement, reflection, and progression in a journey.

I would also ask what type of style they primarily to use (authoritative, cooperative, etc). Ask what their credentials and achievements are (as well as how current they are) as well as if they have had experience in the type of archery you would like to do. If a student knows their goals, they should let them be known and ask if they can be achieved. And don’t forget to ask about the rates. Dollar wise, my coach cost $60 an hour. We usually see him every 3-4 weeks. But keep in mind that he probably does an additional 1 to 2 hours of homework himself preparing for our lesson (he also has assistants).

Hope that helps.

[Green]

This is outstanding information Arne and Bob.  I thank you for laying this all out for those who seek to learn from qualified instructors/coaches.  The reason I suggested this in this thread is that I have been the beneficiary of some excellent instruction here by numerous people....primarily, and in the most depth, with Arne.  However, like Arne will attest, there is absolutely no substitute for one on one expertise as I learned by spending hours with Mike "Javi" Cooper last weekend.  For y'all to lay out the credentials required to achieve the various levels of coaching certification is excellent information for all.  Thank You!

Casey - sorry for hijacking your thread.          

[Aggieland]

No don't apologize, I enjoy learning all I can. I have tons of knowledge when it comes to anything involving compound bows. But I'm turning over a new leaf and going traditional, Using a custom "Navajo Stick by Roy Hall" 62"-52# a friend of my dads gave me.  (Great guy!!). I shot instinctive from age 6 up until age 16 then went into the compound phase. Now i'm 32 and realizing how much fun and challenge the longbow can be. Hitting a pie plate at 90 yds with my carbon element became routine and I was loosing interest.  I have what I think is pretty decent form due to my past experience but Learning what spine will work out of this bow and other important steps I don't know   when it comes to these bows. Also My groups are not great yet after 4 days I can keep my arrows on a rinehart 18-1 out to 30 but they usually are all over the target at that range. If I anchor and aim taking 3 seconds or so per shot my groups are much better. So I know I have much more to learn thanks for the info so far.. : )

[McDave]

My perspective is a little different from Bob and Arne, since I haven't had any individual coaching.  Instead, I've attended classes given by Fred Asbell, Rick Welch, and Rod Jenkins (twice).  Each of these individuals has their own distinctive style of shooting and teaching, and I've enjoyed seeing their different approaches.  My own personal shooting style is sort of a combination of what I've learned from each of them, weighted toward Rod's style, as that has seemed to give me the most consistency.

I do believe that any one of them would be able to look at a person shooting and identify the things that person is doing that are causing inaccuracies; things that the person is probably not able to identify for himself.  As was mentioned by everyone, that is the primary benefit of an instructor or coach.  Most of the things we are doing wrong we have done wrong for so many thousands of shots that it feels right to us, which makes it very hard to self-diagnose.

The main benefit of a coach over going to a class is that I'm sure as soon as I leave the class I start doing some of the old things wrong again, or start doing something new wrong, and a good coach would keep me on the right path better than I can do for myself.  Experts at all levels use personal coaches, which means that we never outgrow the need for it.

The main benefit of a class is that you get to meet some new folks, and learn almost as much by watching other people shoot in front of the class and being critiqued as you do when it's your turn.  And, as I mentioned, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and you might like part of one instructor's style for one thing and another instructor's style for another.  I realize that if you wanted to become an Olympic competitor, a lot of the ways we shoot might not be appropriate, but then some of the things Olympic competitors do wouldn't work out very well in the woods, either.

To be honest, I am the only person out of the group I shoot with that has ever gone to a class or had any formal instruction.  I may never be able to shoot as well as a couple of them on a  regular basis, although on some days I can.  Rick Welch has never had a day of instruction.  So you can do it yourself, if you are persistent.

[Green]

4 days?  Heck....you're ahead of many people just by coming to this forum and seeking help.  Did you hit youtube for Moebow's videos yet?  They'll move you right along.

[Aggieland]

Yes, I'm looking up moebow's videos as we speak/type. just curious guys, what kind of groups are you or some of the better shooters you know able to hit at say 20 or 30 yds. we talking orange size, softball, vollyball? Just wanting to know what some of the "good" shooters are hitting.

[McDave]

I just returned from a trad only tournament put on by Traditional Archers of California in Petaluma, CA.  We were shooting at 3D targets at unmarked distances from about 5 yards to about 40 yards, except for a couple of novelty targets several hundred yards away where you were allowed an approach shot, and some targets where either you or the target was moving.  I would say that the better shooters were hitting the target with 18-19 out of 20 shots, and placing their shots in the kill zone 8-9 out of 10 shots.  There is also a smaller kill zone within the kill zone, which sometimes counts an extra point, but that wasn't counted for this tournament.

[Javi]

Originally posted by Aggieland:
Yes, I'm looking up moebow's videos as we speak/type. just curious guys, what kind of groups are you or some of the better shooters you know able to hit at say 20 or 30 yds. we talking orange size, softball, vollyball? Just wanting to know what some of the "good" shooters are hitting.

Groups come from consistency of form and execution; to shoot good groups learn only one way to shoot a shot. Develop a shot sequence (check list) which includes a series of processes beginning with how you address the target and ending with your follow through after the release, then follow that check list without fail, stopping any shot at the point you cannot put a check mark by the process.. Allowing yourself to shoot a shot where one process is not correct only tells your brain that it is OKAY to shoot a BAD shot.

A good coach will build on your strengths and correct your weakness, guiding you to your goal at a speed that you can master…. Unfortunately in today’s instant gratification climate the student wants to learn it all today and is often disappointed with the results.

Now… back to groups

I do not teach my students to shoot groups. Groups are a product of a number of shots, I teach my students to shoot the best shot they are capable of every time they release an arrow. If each shot is a GOOD shot the results will follow.  GOOD shots are a product of a GOOD shot sequence and proper execution of same. Proper execution can only be built with a proper training system, not just standing and flinging arrows at a target while gauging your success solely on whether you hit the target and then searching for a new method every time you miss. The miss was a direct result of a poorly executed process not a BAD process.  

Learn to train one process at a time until that process becomes automatic then move on to another while incorporating the previously learned process. Your goal should be proper execution of your shot process and not the result of your shot, the result is the product of the execution.

[Green]

[Aggieland]

Good points, thanks for the tips!

[moebow]

This discussion may be getting a little out of the guidelines for this forum but shooting and coaching are pretty related.

I would point out that with Rob's suggestion of a list of instructors/coaches (which I think is a good idea) that the TBM website has a list of clubs and "mentors" that are willing to help.  There are not too many mentors signed up yet but if you are willing to help folks that would be a place to get your contact information out.  The listing is by location (state/town) and email contact.  Just a thought.

[Green]

Arne - I'll start a thread here in a bit and hopefully the mods will let it stand as it's in the best interest of those who come to this forum looking for help like you noted.