What is "bone on bone" alignment?

[toby]

Working on my form and see this referred to frequently. Can someone explain it to me?

[Javi]

Toby.. give me a call and I'll walk you through the process.. it's pretty simple.. I'll pm my cell #

I won’t go into it on the internet; too many problems with internet coaching and differing opinions...

[stringstretcher]

This is exactly what we don't need in my opinion.  Everyone has different styles of coaching, and each individual has the right to choose who he wants to teach them via their method.  To stop posting so others can learn if they want to, is not the way to solve issues.  Let's all play the same game.  So if one get's their feeling hurt, we all stop posting??  Why does it have to be this way?

[Javi]

Originally posted by stringstretcher:
This is exactly what we don't need in my opinion.  Everyone has different styles of coaching, and each individual has the right to choose who he wants to teach them via their method.  To stop posting so others can learn if they want to, is not the way to solve issues.  Let's all play the same game.  So if one get's their feeling hurt, we all stop posting??  Why does it have to be this way?

While I could have given Toby a stock answer, I felt it was better to be able to hear inflections in his voice and be able to answer any questions he might have had instantly instead of trying to explain a “Feeling” with the written word.  

I much prefer to avoid internet coaching in favor of individual coaching; the chance of miscommunication is just too great via the written word.

In fact I should probably avoid phone coaching as well where the student is unknown to me; far too easy for miscommunication to occur and more damage than good come from the encounter.

[Terry Green]

I agree with stringstretcher......if internet coaching is so bad....then do we need to forward all questions to ONE person and shut the forum down for everyone else?......or, just list one persons email for all questions and shut down the entire forum all together?

Bone on Bone?

See the form clock thread featured at the top....proper alignment = bone on bone.

[Javi]

Terry, y'all do what you want... just don't forward the e-mails to me... :D  

I will make every effort not to coach on your forum..

[BobCo 1965]

Usually bone on bone refers to anchor position. A non-easily movable bone on the hand touching a bone on the face which is also not easily moved (maybe an upper tooth). Problem is that almost everything can move on the body. That is why a multi anchor usually works well. Personally, I like the index finger to touch a particular upper tooth (I would not consider this bone on bone however because I am using the pad of my finger), and the last joint on my thumb closest to the hand rested up under the jaw bone. This would be considered bone on bone; however it could be easily moved (thumb joint). To keep this consistent, I keep the thumb overlapping the pinky slightly. This hand position also forms a pocket in the back of the jaw.

[Javi]

Although what is most often called “bone on bone alignment” is an absolute ( you either have it or you don't) teaching it to someone is not absolute. The alignment of the bow shoulder so that the load of the bows draw weight is not on the shoulder muscles but rather dispersed into the archers back through the bone structure thereby making him/her more stable is not. It is subjective in that each archers body is not an exact copy of the next so we as coaches cannot simply say align the arm at 22.5 degrees to the chest. Proper alignment is something that must be felt and I have yet to be able to put that feeling into print so that everyone can read and immediately feel it.. I find that I must spend time making sure that the individual is really understanding exactly what it is I'm trying to convey..

There are many things that you can teach in a book or with illustrations and many others that you can easily convey with a few words, like..... if you cant the bow you should also cant your head to the same angle, or don't turn your head and look over your nose while canting your head, instead tilt your head to the string angle and look along side your nose not over it.. but I have never been able to readily articulate a feeling or sensation quite that easily...

[Terry Green]

Originally posted by Javi:

I will make every effort not to coach on your forum..

Where did you get the idea I didn't want your input here?  That sure wasn't my intent.

I cannot tell you how many folks have emailed me over the years thanking me for this forum because their shooting improved. And, many have even posted directly on this forum over the years thanking folks and expressing their  excitement over their improvement. MANY have stated that they finaly found the missing link here after years of shooting.

And NO, they weren't just thanking me, but input from others as well.  Folks are taking things off the table, and leaving on the table what doesn't work for them.  If no one puts info on the table, then there's nothing to take.

Your input is certainly welcome Javi.

[ermont]

I certainly would appreciate any and all input. I have gleaned a lot of information from many different sources which have solved many problems and saved a lot of trial and error. There are a lot of guys here with knowledge that needs to be shared. Please sing out. I know I have many problems which need to be solved!

[Green]

As someone who has benefitted greatly by this forum I'd like to just make one observation.  I have received phone coaching, and I have received internet coaching....both as a result of this forum.  But by far.....and I do mean by far....personal coaching by a highly qualified instructor removes all misinterpretations.  

I spent most of one Saturday....about 3 weeks ago with Javi.  What he taught me in those 6 hours or so....one on one....I could have spent the rest of my life trying to understand.  I now understand "bone on bone"....would I try to share it by writing?  Absolutely not....like Javi said....it's going to be different for each person, and is easy for a qualified coach to demonstrate with a few key "tests" as the position for each archer will be a little different.  But this is just one of the major keys to proper alignment.

I don't like the thought of folks getting squeamish about posting helpful ideas and direction in this forum.  It's all valuable, and like was said earlier....some stuff is left on the table, some things are picked up and used.  But the most helpful advice anyone of us could give (IMHO) is to get yourself setup with a qualified coach to short circuit misconceptions, misdiagnosis, misinterpretation, and "misalignment".

Edited to add that having received "one on one" instruction, I now get much more out of the advice given in this forum.  Everything from Terry's Form Clock and threads, Rod Jenkin's advice/video's, Moebow's coaching/video's to all the qualified form advice offered here is much clearer now that I have a solid basis to interpret from.

[Friend]

Toby>>>Bone on bone is used to describe an alignment position and the the correct few muscles required to maintain that alignment.
The bow arm just naturally wishes to stay neutral with the least amount of effort.

One example of using true bone on bone: What position can you maintain longer? A push-up held at half way down or a push in the full arm extended position. The bone on bone full extended position has the major advantage.

The mechanical advatange of bone on bone permits one to focus more intently on the mark, facilates the ability to relax at anchor and much more easily incorporate proper fluent shot execution.

Note: Bow arm movement at release is just one very good indicator of proper alignment, proper bow arm/back tension balance and incorporation of the correct muscles.

[Ed Q]

Toby, call Javi.  I did, and he was able to explain to me what bone-on-bone means.

Don't mean to go too off-topic, and I'm not trying to talk for Javi in this instance, but having talked to him over the phone before, he explained that he was better able to convey certain shooting concepts orally than in writing.  This was after I had asked him to post his coaching insights on another issue in a different forum.  He wasn't trying to be rude in the other forum by not posting.  As he explained, it was just much easier for him to talk to the person than it was trying to write it down in a post.

[Terry Green]

I agree....phone calls are best at times to better explain things....I've done that many times to help get the point across as its easier and less time consuming than typing at times....but that doesn't mean that folks can't get help from the typed word.  Its a constant here.

If someone wants to contact someone by phone....that's great...and is very generous to do so....I like knowing folks get help any way they can...and I like hearing and seeing folks improve. It makes the journey and hunts more rewarding when you can actually will the arrow to its intended mark.

   

[wv lungbuster]

There's also a good segment in the Bowhunter's of Tradgang DVD were Terry Green goes into detail of proper alignment.

[Terry Green]

Yeah Friend....bone on bone allows you to use the CORRECT muscles to draw the bow....and NOT allow you to 'muscle the bow' which causes all sorts of problems.