Goodbye "GAP"..Hello "INSTINCTIVE"

[JINKSTER]

well folks..some of the "ANCHOR/FORM" recomendations i recieved here were to get away from my ingrained field/target archery style and get more trad about things such as "Canting My Bow" (instead of straight up) and "Instinctive Shooting" (rather than window/gap) and i tried the "cant my bow instinctive" gig for a few groups a couple nights ago and man was it ugaaleee...so i gave up and went back to my normal straight up window method..but in the last couple nights it's also been haunting me that it seems i've kinda reached a "Skill Peak" with this straightup window/gap style of shooting as i'm just not getting any better..so tonight?..i comitted myself to changing to pure instinctive..for better or for worse..and like any major form change i figured it was gonna get worse before it got better...and it took me a couple dozen 5 arrow groups tonight before i started to get the hang of it..both eyes open..bow canted..not looking at a dang thing but the spot i want to hit nd a periphial view of my arrows relationship to the target and banged out this last group at sundown..only at 15yds though and not a single bullseye but still..at least i'm comitted and making headway towards pure instinctive.."THEN"..maybe my skills will progress too 20yds. LOL!

 

I'm grouping a little right and wondering if i should be keeping both eyes open or not?

T.I.A. Bill.  

[MI-Tradbowguy]

Nice group!  I was always tod to move the group, not the individual arrow, but that was with my cam bow.  I am no expert, but have you checked wich eye is dominate?  I'm a left eye dominate right hand shooter....

[JINKSTER]

thank you    and yes..i'm right handed and right eye dominant..maybe i just need to get that mental computer programmed a little to the left. LOL!

[Jock Whisky]

I assume your equipment is tuned for shooting with a canted bow.
I shot to the right until someone mentioned this little trick.
Stand in front of a mirror with your bow in hand. Don't actually nock the arrow for obvious reasons.
Now holding the nock between your index and middle finger, just as if it was nocked, draw the arrow and point it at the arrow in the mirror. Are both arrows in line? If not, your arrow is not directly under your shooting eye. You may want to reduce the degree of cant be straightening up a bit.


JW

[JINKSTER]

Originally posted by Jock Whisky:
I assume your equipment is tuned for shooting with a canted bow.
I shot to the right until someone mentioned this little trick.
Stand in front of a mirror with your bow in hand. Don't actually nock the arrow for obvious reasons.
Now holding the nock between your index and middle finger, just as if it was nocked, draw the arrow and point it at the arrow in the mirror. Are both arrows in line? If not, your arrow is not directly under your shooting eye. You may want to reduce the degree of cant be straightening up a bit.


JW

Thank you...i'll hafta try that..someone also mentioned to me that's it's important to cant my head at the same cant angle as my bow..dont know if it's true or not but i'm trying everything at this point. LOL!

[Terry Green]

It might not have to do with can't....could be your anchor isn't aligning the arrow under you eye.


It might NOT be your alignment also...how far past center is your bow cut?

I've had a few bows over the years that shot to the right and I had to shim out the strike plate to bring them back left on target.  These bows were all cut past center pretty deep.

While trying to learn....remember, don't change more than one thing at a time...    

[JINKSTER]

Originally posted by Terry Green:
It might not have to do with can't....could be your anchor isn't aligning the arrow under you eye.


It might NOT be your alignment also...how far past center is your bow cut?

I've had a few bows over the years that shot to the right and I had to shim out the strike plate to bring them back left on target.  These bows were all cut past center pretty deep.

While trying to learn....remember, don't change more than one thing at a time...          

Thanks Terry..all good suggestions..dont recall how far past center the riser is cut..it's an old Bob Lee TD "Hunter"..however I do recall watching the VCR Video Tape Tutorial that came with it years ago and Bob lee's son recomending a 1916 arrow as ideal..these arrows i've fletched up recently from years ago are 2013 XX75 Superlites..125gr Combo-Points..I removed the foam padded tape from the backside of the hair sideplate and (cringe) gorilla glued it to the window wall (to thin the hair plate rest inwards to compensate for the 1/64th" larger diameter than suggested 2013's) and bareshaft tuned it with "couldnt ask for better" results..so i'm pretty sure this is a "Form Developement" issue as transitioning from straight up feild archery window/gap shooting too true cant/instinctive is all new to me..i have 3 daughters and had bought them all PSE Optima Olympic Style Recurves years ago (when i had ambitions of teaching them archery for scholarships..they got pre-paid instead. lol)..but i just found my oldest daughters 66" 20LB'er hiding in the closet and i think i'm going to try and use that as a "Form Development Tool" today..where i'm holding ultra-lightweight that i can move things around and work with a bit instead of "panicing for position" with my 54# Bob Lee..then once i get form issues ironed out i'll get back on the TD Hunter...sound good?    

[JINKSTER]

WOOOHOOOOO! PAYDIRT!
 
a new day has come...and the archery gods must be smiling on me!

You guys have given me a lot of advice here..i've been trying everything and hanging onto what actually works for me and you all have been very beneficial helping me develope, establish and refine my own personal trad form..i switched up to what i consider to be my most limber and forgiving arrows..(even though i dont much care for the brand or material they fly like darts out of my Bob Lee recurve)..RadialXWeave STL 100's with 30gr inserts/125gr Points..slight cant..middle finger barely touching corner of mouth..both eyes wide open...split vision sighting down the shaft and gaping the point..and after figuring out and finalizing the above as my exacting intended form?..i shot 3 practice groups of 5 arrows this morning (granted at a mere 15yds) that resulted in very tight groupings just before i finally homed in my gap and shot this 4th group below..
 
 

I was in awe with myself as my first 3 shots nailed dead in the X..then i got so excited (figuring i'm finally onto something here) i threw the last two too the right a tad..but still very happy that my trad form technic and understanding is finally coming together somewhat and now it's just a matter of gobs of practice and shot-too-shot self discipline regarding my new found form..the only change i may make is trying the 3 fingers under gig to close up my gap..outside of that?..i'm very happy today and thank you all for your continued help! Bill.  

[gonefishing600]

Originally posted by JINKSTER:
"THEN"..maybe my skills will progress too 20yds. LOL!

I would keep an open mind about the gap shooting. When you get out past 25 to 30 yards, the instinctive get harder, the gap get easier.

[JINKSTER]

Originally posted by gonefishing600:

Originally posted by JINKSTER:
"THEN"..maybe my skills will progress too 20yds. LOL!

I would keep an open mind about the gap shooting. When you get out past 25 to 30 yards, the instinctive get harder, the gap get easier. [/b]

Oh yeah..i'm 53 years old but still in the learning stages of trad and probably will be for quite sometime..and while i'm all enthused at the moment with this new found magical mystical skill and realizing that i am in fact capable of applying instinctive aiming with a very reasonable degree of accuracy?..i'm not discounting the virtue of consistancy that gap shooting holds..and yes..i've ventured out to 25 and 30 and these are the ranges where my arrow shaft starts rising to a reasonable level of..well?..Gapping..which at times has me questioning myself.."was that an instinctive shot or a gap shot?"..i think i know this..i believe at 10 & 15 i'm truely shooting 100% instinctive..i think the transition starts at about 20yds and further that i may be using a combination of both..if that makes any sense to you..and just to add?..i remembered/realized this the other day..even when i was competeing 3D with a peep/pin-sighted compound?..say i'd estimate a target to be 45yds..my best thinking (under the duress of competition) would be to split my 40 & 50yd pins right in the middle..when in actuality?..true 45yds is just a tad south of "the middle" of those two pins..but that's where i'd be holding..right up to the last millisecond and just before release?..it was like my minds computer would say..unt-uh..raise your bowarm a hair..and it was definantly an involentary last second act and dang if that last moment adjustment wouldnt pinwheel the bull..cant count the times "that" happened..but it certainly did! Guess in that case you could say i was a gap shooter with instinctive tendencies! LOL!..but thanks man..getting this trad thing down is a new world to me so i'm definantly keeping all options and my mind..open.  

[beendare]

Best of luck to you.

I am in the same boat. I started shooting a recurve 3 years ago and gave it up after 9 months due to the frustration of missing a whitetail at 25 yards. [about a 140 buck!]

 When I started shooting, I talked a very nice guy into mentoring me- he was the best trad shooter around winning just about every tournament he entered. He had me shooting very good groups but with a straight up bow gap style.  After about 4 months I could out shoot a high % of trad guys.

 Here was my problem, the gap style didn't translate well to hunting. [I know there are plenty of guys smiling knowingly at this comment!] Hey, I didn't know.

 I was used shooting "where I aimed" on an animal. I didn't even shoot 3D's as well as targets, I should have had a clue at that point!?

So last week I decided to give the recurve another go but this time as instinctive. Heck, in the day, I was a very good outfielder so it shouldn't be that hard, eh?

[JINKSTER]

Originally posted by beendare:
Best of luck to you.

I am in the same boat. I started shooting a recurve 3 years ago and gave it up after 9 months due to the frustration of missing a whitetail at 25 yards. [about a 140 buck!]

 When I started shooting, I talked a very nice guy into mentoring me- he was the best trad shooter around winning just about every tournament he entered. He had me shooting very good groups but with a straight up bow gap style.  After about 4 months I could out shoot a high % of trad guys.

 Here was my problem, the gap style didn't translate well to hunting. [I know there are plenty of guys smiling knowingly at this comment!] Hey, I didn't know.

 I was used shooting "where I aimed" on an animal. I didn't even shoot 3D's as well as targets, I should have had a clue at that point!?

So last week I decided to give the recurve another go but this time as instinctive. Heck, in the day, I was a very good outfielder so it shouldn't be that hard, eh?

Yep..i'm still learning and listened to gonefishing600 about keeping an open mind regarding gap at longer distances..an he was right..but what i found instrumental to gapping was to raise my anchor point from jawbone to cheekbone getting the arrow (like Terry said) right under and ligned more to my eye..this accomplished a lot for me..for one?..the rediculously huge gaps went away..now with the higher anchor/hold i'm point 8"s low (or 2 shaft diameters) at 20yds and 1 shaft diameter low at 25 and point-on at 30yds,,i'm also using the cock feather touching the bridge of my nose as a draw-stop and canting my bow so that the cock feather and top hen feather act as sort of a rear notch sight and this method has been working out extremely well for me..confidence levels using gap at the longer distances are way up and got to listen to the sweet sound of feathers jamming up at 30yds a couple nights ago..i'm gett'in there but i'm finding that instinctive works best for me at less than 20 (cause the gap is so big) and gap works best from 20 on out..the only problem i'm encountering is if i shoot a lot of close up instinctive?..it becomes extremely difficult for me (for some reason) to draw my attention/focus back to the arrow when gapping the longer shots...but still having a blast!...matter fact?..i'm currently shopping longbows..as i can no longer see a need for that window clutter of a recurve now that i'm gaining an understanding of true trad shooting/aiming methods.  

L8R, Bill.