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Author Topic: Is this target panic?Help!!!  (Read 1256 times)

Offline Miner49er

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Is this target panic?Help!!!
« on: May 19, 2013, 05:37:00 PM »
I have been working on the Rod Jenkins bridge program.I did the blind bale for weeks.Got my form down really good.Brought the target into play,shot 60-100 arrows at ten yards,form good,stacked the arrows on the spot.backed up three or four steps,same results,until I get to about twenty yards.Then for some reason my form starts to falter,sometimes I don't quite reach anchor and my arrows look like I shot them out of a shotgun.I don't shoot very many arrows at a time ,so I'm not tired.Has anyone had this happen to them?Help me!!!!

Offline moebow

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2013, 05:43:00 PM »
In the bridge program, when (if) you get to a place where your form is breaking down, you are not ready for that distance.  That is when you go back and start over.  This is what makes the bridge effective and at the same time makes it very frustrating.

I'd say it is not TP, just that you aren't ready for that distance yet.  You must be honest with yourself and "call it" when that happens and start over.

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Offline Miner49er

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2013, 07:20:00 PM »
Do you mean back to the blank bale or back to ten yards, or both?

Offline moebow

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2013, 07:43:00 PM »
Yes, both.  Go back and re confirm form on the blank bale then when that is good again, start with the target at whatever your short distance starting point is and work out again.  The INSTANT you have a "less than" shot -- you start over still again.

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Offline moebow

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 07:44:00 PM »
PS.  The whole point is to transfer your blank bale form to shooting targets.  It takes time and absolute honesty and dedication.
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Offline Miner49er

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 07:48:00 PM »
Thank you very much.Any help much appreciated.

Offline Green

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2013, 09:00:00 PM »
Follow Arne's advice Miner.  I wasn't as honest with myself as I should have been and 4 months after the clinic started shooting in 3D tournaments again.  I won consistently at first, and stopped doing bridge drills....I did end up with a roaring case of TP.  After trying to find all sorts of quick fixes, etc., I went back to the bale and am back doing bridge drills again, trying to get myself back on the right track, and it's working.
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Offline CLICKERMAN

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 01:39:00 AM »
Target panic will not be fixed with blank bale shooting!!!!  I know that I may be crucified for saying that, but if you are not attacking the mental shooting problem from a mental angle, the system will not hold up under stress.  It shouldn't take 4 months to shoot 20 yards!!!!!  Attacking target panic by shooting blank bales may not be the correct approach.  Mental shooting issues are not fixed by practicing form.  Form is not the problem!!!!  Distance should not affect how the arrow is shot.  The physical action of shooting the bow is the same from 0 to 100yards, it is merely a different aim.  If you can't reach full draw and anchor, being at 20 yards did not create that.  What you are thinking about during the shot created the problem.  I can't say it enough,,,,,blank bale shooting is meant to fix form issues, not target panic issues.  Fix the mental issues first.  When you can shoot a perfect arrow at any distance, then you can work on form issues.  However, if you don't fix the mental issues, you are merely skirting around the underlying problems.  

Blank bale shooting is not a complete shot, it is a totally conscious shot where certain aspects of the shot are concentrated on, that's why everyone can shoot great on blank bales.  A blank bale shot does not require the archer to switch concentration from aiming to shot activation.  On a blank bale, the archer is free to concentrate on shot activation alone or whatever aspect of form they are working on, but you didn't get to work on switching concentration under stress.

Many people that have called me tell me about the bridge program, but no one I have talked to has been able to maintain this program under stress.  I had one person tell me he had been working on it for two years, and he believed he almost had it!!!!!  If you know what to concentrate on during a shot, and you know HOW to concentrate, you will have a complete shot plan in 30 minutes.  The rest of your archery career is spent perfecting your concentration under stress.  The skill is not shooting an arrow, that is simply making an arrow come out the front of your bow!!!  The skill that separates elite archers from the rest of folks is the ability to concentrate under stress.  When you know what you are thinking about during your shot and you know how to control and recognize your thoughts, you get better and better at concentration.  Concentration is the skill that must be practiced.  

Finally, I will say this, if the supposed fix to target panic still allows the subconsious to tell itself when to release, it is susceptible to the hard wired system that is always looking to make you more efficient (the subconscious).  If left to the autopilot, the perfect shot that you seek will always be shortcut, that's natural.

I apologize if I have offended anyone with my ramblings, but I would just like people to get out of target panic, quickly and efficiently.  Waiting for the blank bale to fix mental issues is a broken system.  It is time to be honest with ourselves and get to fixing the problem in a permanent way.  :banghead:    :deadhorse:  

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Offline Green

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2013, 03:58:00 AM »
Joel, I hope that you didn't mistake my comment about quick fixes for that which you are teaching...the quick fixes were of my own making.....you have well tested, and very workable solutions.

I've come to understand that TP lives at the intersection of Good Form and Aiming.  The blank bale is the place to perfect one's form without the added distration of aiming....all thought is directed to proper feel and execution of each step in the sequence.  The bridge drills are where we bring aiming into this equation, and TP lurks on each of the 4 corners of this intersection as we know.  

Most problems with the blending of these two shot components are solved with the conscious mental ability to get on target, and hold on target while running the conclusion of the shot.  You give us an excellent way to consciously manage the conclusion, while mentally by-passing the gremlin that short circuits a proper finish to the shot.  

For myself, this gremlin began attacking long before true anchor, and to get to the end of the shot where pulling through to a non-anticipated trigger was simply a wish.  With your help, I was successful in developing a conscious mantra to get myself through the first part of the shot sequence so that I could get to the part of the shot where I could apply the main focus of what you teach.  It DID involve a few days at the bale....but I WAS aiming (as removing the part of the shot that causes TP isn't going to get you anywhere).  I just had to use a mantra to get myself past the very first place TP reared its' ugly head in my sequence.

I also discovered over the past weekend that my TP most likely originated from a visual problem while shooting a bow vertically.....string blur and visual interference from the riser were causing my dominant eye to lose out to my non-dominant eye while aiming.  My personal gremlin didn't have as much to do with removing the tension from my body as it did with getting the shot off before the dominance switch caused my eyes to ruin my site picture.  I went back to shooting a slightly canted bow yesterday and my site picture returned to crystal clear.  The anxiety of holding calmly on target started to disappear in about a dozen or so shots, and I can now apply what you teach to the end of the shot.....during bridge drills!       :biglaugh:
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Offline Brock

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2013, 10:22:00 AM »
i agree I dont think it is target panic...I think it is a lack of concentration or being able to focus.  I noticed as my eyes got worse with old age it was harder to focus on a very small spot to aim and my eyes would try to focus on my arrow or bow or something else OTHER than the spot on the target.  It would also happen when I did not slow down, take a breath and exhale to relax and try to burn a hole in that spot where everything around it is a blur except that spot.

That and my plucking the string.....  :(
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Online McDave

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2013, 04:31:00 PM »
In order to answer the original poster's question, we need to decide what target panic is.  The term has come to mean a mental condition outside of our conscious control that causes us to perform at less than our potential.  If we perform at less than our potential because we are tired, bored, worried, or in pain, we don't call it target panic, because we can identify the cause and know that once the cause has been removed, the problem will go away.

Under that broad definition, I think we would have to agree that he has target panic, because he probably wouldn't be posting if he were just tired, bored, etc.  If he didn't have target panic, there would be a gradual increase in group size as he increased his distance from the target up to the maximum range of the bow, not a sudden loss of accuracy at 20 yards.  Now it is possible, of course, that if he shoots enough arrows at 20 yards, the problem might go away by itself, but it could also either get worse or come back at other times and places.

Personally, I really don't like that broad of a definition of target panic.  I have experienced two different types of mental conditions outside of my conscious control that have caused me to shoot at less than my potential, and there may well be more.

The first type is where we turn the shot release process over to the subconscious mind, and the subconscious mind begins to look for shortcuts, as Joel mentions above.  After a while, we are no longer able to reach full draw before the arrow is released.  We find that we can't cure the problem just by deciding that we will not release the arrow until we come to full draw, because "deciding" is a conscious process, which has no control over the subconscious mind.

The second type has nothing to do with the subconscious mind: it is caused by doubt in the conscious mind.  The symptoms are that we may feel a chill in our blood, like our brain is disconnected from our body, and like we have lost the strength in our arms and backs.  We find it difficult to concentrate and focus on the target or anything else.  We just want to get the shot over, hopefully without losing the arrow.  It is similar to the stage fright someone might feel if they have an aversion to performing in front of a group.

What both of these conditions have in common is that the cause is difficult to identify and the problem can't be overcome by willpower.  In fact trying harder just leads to frustration and makes the problem worse.  I have overcome both of these, at least for the moment, but the methods I used were very different for each type of problem. Different enough that I believe it is confusing to call both of them by the same name.  I would probably use "target panic" to describe the subconscious issues, because the term seems to be more frequently associated with those, in my reading, at least.  I would probably call the second set of issues "doubt panic" but that's just something I came up with on the spur of the moment.

From the original poster's description, I would say he doesn't have any target panic, under my more limited definition, but may have a touch of doubt panic.
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Offline Mitch H

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 09:55:00 PM »
I would respectfully disagree with the assertion that blank baling will NOT cure target panic.

Target panic is 100% a mental short circuit, and there are many varied avenues to overcome the affliction.

I have seen some really good archers NEVER recover from a good dose of TP.

Making your mind consciously concentrate on one thing ONLY is the key to overcoming TP, and I have seen blank/blind baling do the trick for a few people……me included.

IMO, a good pre-shot routine that is followed to a "T" on every single shot is the key to keeping target panic at bay.

There is a bright side to target panic……I have seen more than 100 shooters get it, and I have yet to see an average shooter suffer from TP. It always finds guys/gals that are pretty good at stacking arrows.  :)
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Offline CLICKERMAN

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2013, 02:30:00 AM »
Mitch H.

You are right on the money!!!  I agree with you wholeheartedly, consciously concentrating on one thing is the key to keeping target panic at bay.  If blank bale shooting teaches you how to do that, then use that tool.  You are also correct in saying the pre shot routine must be followed to a T on EVERY shot.  The problem is, most people use blank bale shooting to fix form related issues and not as a tool to practice concentration.  The thing I emphasis in my clinics is teaching people actually "HOW" to concentrate under stress and I give them ways to practice that skill.  Once again, if blank bale shooting allows you to practice your concentration under stress, and hone the routine, use it, but continue to realize what it is doing to the mental side of the shot.  It sounds like it works great for you because you have used it as a concentration tool and you sound like a very determined shooter.  I say more power to you sir, keep up the good work!!!

JT
Joel Turner
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Offline Miner49er

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 06:30:00 PM »
I really do appreciate all the input from everyone.After reading all the responses,I spent a lot of time rethinking what I have been doing.
I think all of you can have a piece.I don't think I've been 100% honest about starting over after less than perfect form shot,I also shoot 7 arrows before I pull them.I don't think I can hold my concentration for that many arrows in a row,and I have had so many bad habits to break,my self doubt is probably high.For me its a struggle to do everything correct,but I still have a lot of fun with it!Again,thanks to a bunch of smart ARCHERS!!!

Offline Miner49er

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 06:54:00 PM »
P.S to Joel.I sure would like to hear how to stay 100% focused when a group of people are watching you shoot.What do you do to tune them out.

Offline CLICKERMAN

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2013, 12:52:00 AM »
Miner49er,

Just give me a call and I will be able to explain it better over the phone.  Looking forward to chatting with you.  253-686-3623

JT
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Offline ron w

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 10:33:00 AM »
There are many forms of target panic, some can't get to full draw, some can't get a sight picture. Many can get to full draw and then not release.It's a mind game gone bad and very difficult to cure. As for the fella that says most average shooters don't have a problem with it.....not true. I'm an average shooter and have struggled with it for years. I have beat it to some degree but it really never goes away. I have read all the books, watched all the videos and that has helped to some degree. Not to be a smart a$$, but all my problems started when I started listening to other people on how to shoot. I have great respect for Fred Asbell and Rod Jenkins and others like them......but I was better off when I didn't know anything and let things just happen.....Just my thoughts.....   :notworthy:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's there are few...So the most difficult thing is always to keep your beginner's mind...This is also the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner.  Shunryu Suzuki

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 02:43:00 PM »
Hi Ron, I think what you're saying is true, to a degree.  I think the problem is not so much what other people are telling you to do, however, but thinking about what they told you while trying to shoot the bow at the same time.  At least that seems to be the case with me.

We can't do a complicated hand/eye coordination sport like archery very well if we're trying to force our body to do something different than it's used to doing.  Of course, if we're not happy with the way we're shooting, and want to learn to do it better, then we have to go through a period of time at first where we're thinking about things and trying to do things differently.  But then, if we want to get any good at it, we have to let go of thinking and trying, and instead maybe re-learn how to be aware of what our body is doing on a far deeper level than we can ever think or try to do.

In addition to standing in the way of improving, thinking and trying is what gives rise to doubt, which I mentioned in my previous post.  When we stop thinking and trying, and begin to increase our awareness of what our body is doing, we also get rid of doubt.  If there is no conscious thought during the shot process, there can be no doubt or destructive byproducts of doubt.

So yes, a self-taught person has no reason to think about things during the shot process and might be able to shoot quite well if he is lucky enoug to hit on a good method of shooting naturally.  Evidently this is the case with Rick Welch, who has never had a lesson and can shoot very well indeed.  But for those of us not quite so lucky, it might be helpful to bear in mind that learning is really a two step process: first think and try, then become aware and do.
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Offline ron w

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Re: Is this target panic?Help!!!
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2013, 04:11:00 PM »
:thumbsup:   Well put....I think....LOL!
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's there are few...So the most difficult thing is always to keep your beginner's mind...This is also the real secret of the arts: always be a beginner.  Shunryu Suzuki

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