Gapping...Point of aim....accuracy

[ChiefStingingArrow]

several times I have tried to step back to 40 yards or so and find out where my point of aim is at. However whenever I try to put my arrow tip right on the spot that I am trying to hit several things seem to mess me up.

I am use to looking down my arrow and kind of just pointing my arrow at the bulls eye....

with trying to do point on it seems like my tip is a large stick and the bulls eye is so small...
So, basically when I bring my arrow tip up it kind of just covers the whole target.
Not sure If I am making sense.

So, How do you gappers go about shooting at point on? Do you find it different than at closer ranges? Do you have to aim/shoot different at point on?

Thanks

[moebow]

Chief...,

This is fairly easy to "walk" someone through, a little tougher to write.  You don't shoot differently, and you don't start at your estimated POD (point on distance).

First, you need a large target like a 4X4 foot butt.  A 2' square (little block type) is not really going to work very well.

You start at 5 yards.  Put a small mark on the butt that you can see at all distances ( I use blue painter's masking tape but whatever you have.

Place the mark about 1/3 of the way up the butt from the bottom.  Place the arrow tip on the mark and shoot.  You are NOT trying to hit the mark just placing your arrow tip on it!!  Discard shots that you know are not well executed!!

The arrow should hit somewhere ABOVE the mark.  Write down the results: "5 yards -- 10" high" for example.

Move back to 10 yards and do it again -- use the SAME sight picture!  Again write down the results: "10 yards -- 14" high.  Whatever measurement you get!!

Keep doing this in 5 yard increments and writing down the results.

You MIGHT get to a place where  your arrows are in danger of passing over the butt.  Move the mark down.  For many split finger shooters, the arrow will be hitting as much as 30" high at 30 yards, so if necessary move the mark down on the butt.  Eventually, as you move back, you will see that the measurements are starting to decrease and soon you will be at or very near your point on distance.

You do not really need to worry about the point covering the mark, just keep essentially the same sight picture for each shot.

If you have written down each 5 yard result, you will have your "gaps" all the way out to your POD.  The measured distance your arrow hits above the mark is the distance BELOW the bull's eye you need to hold the arrow point in order to HIT the bull's eye.

If you shoot 3 under, your gaps will be smaller and your POD will be shorter.

Work up to your POD, don't just try to start there.  Also, be a precise as you can but remember that, as you point out, the arrow point is pretty big compared to a distant target.  DON'T stress over this just do the best you can and  you'll be surprised how accurate you can be with this system.

Arne

[South MS Bowhunter]

Arne,

Do you need to be on level ground  to get a true measurement? My target butt is a 5'x 5' with marked distances out to 60 yards but it is moving uphill away from the target to 40 yards and then drops from there to 60 yards.

Will this skrew the measurements?

[ChiefStingingArrow]

Thanks Arne! I am able to enjoy shooting the bow because of you guys here on tradgang!

Great Question S. Bowhunter

[moebow]

South,

No, the terrain won't matter, the arrow flies in relation to your line of sight so the results will be the same.

Chief,  let us know how it works out for you, glad to help!

Arne

[South MS Bowhunter]

Arne,

Thanks, I just came back in from trying again to Gap shoot and I just can't see my arrow point!

I've been shooting instinctive for so long (and not good) that t seem impossible to see anything but my intended target.

Would like to learn split or Gap, how do i do it?

[moebow]

John,

Since you are an instinctive shooter, this will be VERY foreign to you but here is how you do it.

Using the "mark" I talk about above, and at short range (5 yards is enough) to start, learn how high above the mark your arrow hits.  Now, place a target on the butt that has a bull's eye, and place a mark BELOW the bull's eye the same distance your arrow was hitting ABOVE the mark.

Now, draw on target but  DO NOT look at the bull's eye (that's the "foreign" part), LOOK at the arrow point and place it on the mark.  Basically this is called "Point of aim," but you are learning to see the arrow and the mark.

As you do this for a while, you will find that "seeing" the arrow becomes more natural.  Once you have this, then you SLOWLY move to looking at the bull's eye WHILE keeping yourself aware of the location of the arrow point below the bull's eye in your peripheral vision.

You must "work" this for a while but after a good amount of practice, you will be able to look at the bull's eye and still set the arrow point at the proper "gap".  In reality, you are working yourself back to a more instinctive type of shot but WITH elevation set with the gap.

This will take some work but is a really good system.  Split vision was Howard Hill's technique and once mastered is basically indistinguishable from instinctive and just as fast.

Think of it this way.  If you stand in your house and look at a light switch on the wall, can you focus on the switch and point at it with your finger that is some position below your eye level?
Can you look at someone's nose and point at their belt buckle and know you are??

Let me know if you need more help.

Arne

[South MS Bowhunter]

Thanks again and sorry Chief from getting off topic with your post  

[ChiefStingingArrow]

Not a problem the questions you asked are questions that I have.

[South MS Bowhunter]

Well then Chief if you don't mind lets continue our lesson...

Arne, Sir I tried today to get my point on down by trying my best to use the point and place on a small aim point.

I got some weird gaps let me know what you think my problems are.

Distance are in Yards...

5 Point On (PO)
10 PO
15 PO
20 3"
25 6"
30 5"
35 PO
40 PO
45 PO
50 -18"
55 -24"
60 -30"

This is not what I would expect     I shoot split with the middle finger in corner of mouth (when consistent which I do suffer TP).

60" Centaur 52#@28" drawn to about 29" arrows are GT 5575 30.25 BOP 175 FT 500 Grains total.

[ChiefStingingArrow]

Wow! I am going to attempt to gap shoot tonight...but I have a feeling that since I have done instinctive for so long that it is going to take some time before I am accurate?

John, Your numbers are quite interesting cant wait to see what the other guys have to say.

[reddogge]

A lot of people who gap shoot use the gap as just a momentary reference and then go back to concentrating on the spot you want to hit. It gets you in the ball park so to speak.

[ChiefStingingArrow]

Reddogge, That is what I want it to do for me...I figure it is good to know that what ever range you are shooting at you at least know where your arrow should be.

I tried it to night....It will take some learning.

When I shot at five yards I was shooting about 12 inches high
@ 10 yrds about 14 inches
@ 15 yrds my arrow went over the target...I quite I figured I needed to do some more learning.

Should there be this great of gaps at this yardage?

[moebow]

OK folks, been in a class all day (and for the next two) so my responses might be slow but I'll get to them.  I'll take the questions in order.

South.  Your gaps from 45 to 60 make sense.  You have too many PO's at less than 45 though and that makes me think you unconsciously revert to instinctive at the shorter distances.  INITIALLY you really have to take the bull's eye OUT of the picture and ONLY focus on the arrow point and the aiming mark.  Think about it.  Your eye is above the arrow and you need to look somewhat down to the arrow point and if you then extend your line of sight on the mark, the arrow HAS to hit above the mark (line of sight).

Shooting split finger as you describe, your POD should be in the 45 to 55 yard range and all the arrow hits less than that will be (should be) above the mark. Keep playing with it and concentrate on the arrow tip and the mark!!

Reddogge, you are absolutely correct!  It becomes a momentary thing AFTER IT IS LEARNED.  And you eventually become only aware of the arrow point position and don't even consciously think about it.

Chief,  That sounds about right.  Maybe a little large for the gaps but that depends almost completely on your arrow nock's position in relation to your eye at full draw.  That's why 3 under shooters have smaller gaps and a shorter POD.  If your target is large enough, place the mark at the very bottom.  Your maximum gaps should occur at the 20 to 30 yard range.

Hope this helps -- wish we could do this in person -- usually an hour will do it.

Arne

[South MS Bowhunter]

Thanks Arne,

Will resume my CBT tomorrow in the morning, I'm finding it difficult to concentrate only on that arrow point!

[ChiefStingingArrow]

Thank you Arne,
I just enjoy shooting

[South MS Bowhunter]

Arne,

PO re-mix II

Doing my best to concentrate on seeing the point, this is what I came up with after several shots at each distance until I got to tired.

All Distances at Yards

5 3"
10 6"
15 10"
20 13"
25 16"
30 13"
35 10"
40 6"
45 4"
50 2"
55 PO

Do these sound reasonable?

Spec's again Centaur 60" 52#@28 drawn to 28.75 to 29" Arrow total weight 500 grains 30.25 BOP.

[South MS Bowhunter]

ttt for Arne.

[moebow]

Sorry John,  missed this last post.  Your gaps LOOK better on this last one but, to me,  look closer to 3 under shooting than split -- for the gaps observed.  The only problem with that is that your final point on is really quite a ways out there.  With  3 under most find their PO to be around 30-35 yards.

Here are mine.  Shot with a 50# bow split finger.  Remember that we are all different and what I get may be quite different from what you get.

yards     inches
5           12
10          18
15          24
20          30
25          36
30          39
35          30
40          30
45          18
50          12
55          0

This was done a while ago and you will find as your shooting changes with time, the gaps may change too.  AGAIN!!!  Everyone is different and don't try to copy my measurements  -- what YOU get is what you GET!!!

Arne

[South MS Bowhunter]

Thanks Arne, shot some more and I'm finding this tough to go from seeing nothing put my target to try and see that point in my sight picture.

I'm not convinced that my gaps are correct, due to bad form (TP) and not seeing the point like I think  should.