Denny Sturgis, TBM and the short draw...

[Al Kidner]

G'day guys,

Firstly, I don't want this thread to roll into one of those "Instinctive v Gap, mine is better" shooting method threads. I'm sure, not only has it been beaten to death time and time again, but the mods, and the everyday Trad Ganger are well aware of the difference and how, sometimes those threads can be a heated.

What I wanted to do was raise awareness to Denny's well written article in the latest Traditional Bowhunter Magazine (TBM).

For some time now I've had a minor struggle with short drawing. I had it under control... mostly, but at times it would raise it butt ugly head and I send a flyer when shooting. Now me being who I am with a solid dose of perfectionist in my blood, I would beat myself up terribly when this happened.

After reading this article, and hopefully I can re write, briefly what Danny mentioned about the aiming process in order to stop the 'Short Draw' problem that many archers face.

In his article he states how he used the analogy of shooting a rifle, where he first puts the but into his shoulder, cheek on the stock, then aims... then puts his finger on the trigger. Now me being an ex Infantry grunt I could relate to this.

 Where the penny dropped for me was that I was that when I was shooting my bow, I'd pick a small spot, draw, anchor (most times) and release.... %90 of the time.

In the article he states how some people look at the face of their bow (for me I look at the writing on my bottom limb) then draw, hold at anchor... then aim, or pick a spot.

I tried this the other day - anchoring first, then aiming - and it worked a treat and I was amazed at how much time I had and I felt I was well in control of my shooting.

My shooting also tighter, naturally... and I felt 'in the grove' if that makes sense guys?

Give it a try lads if you have struggled as I have. Or at least give the article a read.

[Terry Green]

Short drawing is not instinctive. ....short drawing is a mental issue  I.e. target panic.    Instinctive is an aiming style.....nothing to do with target panic.

Glad you got fix On Target panic.....I've never had it....but hear it's very frustrating.

And don't worry.....it will not turn into a debate or argument.

[Phillip Fields]

It was a good article. If it works for you then use it.

In the same issue G. Fred Asbell writes " My method of shooting involves beginning my concentration on the target for a moment before I begin drawing my bow. As I draw, I continue to aim by concentrating on that target. When I reach full-draw, my hand-eye coordination has put everything together and I shoot."

My point is that even the experts go about it differently and you should try different methods and use what works for you.

[McDave]

I agree that it's a well written article and recommend it to everyone who would like to read it.

I agree that the solution to short drawing is to draw without the intention of shooting the bow.  Almost everyone who has a short draw problem can pick up a bow and draw it to full draw without any problem, as long as he knows he's not going to shoot it.  I've done this in tournaments when I get the short draw malady. I'll draw the bow when it's not my turn to shoot, pointing off to the side at a log or something, and be able to draw it just fine. It doesn't help my short draw problems in the tournament, but at least I know I can still draw the bow.

Also, I can draw the bow with the intention of shooting it, as discussed by Al, as long as I'm not aiming it while I'm drawing it.  The problem with this is, once I get to full draw, I'm pretty much locked in.  I can move the bow around a little bit, but if I need to have the arrow point a foot under the target and when I start to aim it's over the target, I can't make that large of a correction without blowing my shot.  So completely ignoring aiming until I'm at full draw doesn't work for me.

What does seem to work for me, so far, is to decide that my first job is to draw the bow to full draw, ending with the arrow point in the close vicinity of where it should be, without any intention of shooting the arrow.  Then I go through a check of my form, grip, whether the stars are in alignment, etc, and give myself an okay to shoot the arrow.  Then I make my micro adjustments of aiming, etc, and shoot the arrow.

If everything doesn't check out, I let down the draw and start over (in theory; I'm not 100% there yet with letting down, but I have successfully done it some of the time).  

This worked fine the first few times I tried it.  Then I think my mind decided it was just bull**** and refused to take it seriously anymore.

This is the key, guys: concentration!  It is easy for your mind to concentrate on something the first few times you try it, and then you just start to go through the motions.  Concentration means that you eliminate all thoughts other than on what you're trying to accomplish.  So when you find yourself slipping, you have to regain your concentration. You have to have a discussion with yourself, like, "No, self, this $hit is important, all I want you to do is to draw the bow to full draw and then decide whether to shoot it or not.  If everything isn't okay, then let it down."  You already know this stuff on one level, but you have to remind yourself to actually do it on another level.  And keep reminding yourself every time you slip; that's what concentration is.

[Al Kidner]

Your both 100 % right guys and I've always said to people over the years in regards to shooting... "Do what works".

Some days - before reading this method/article - I'd over think things and get worked up over my shooting and not do so well... other days i'd be back to normal again.

Even though I've only been shooting this new method for a few days I already feel in control 100 % of the time and I feel I can release when I want to... not simply when I'm on target. Which happened a lot before. Kind of like I shoot before I meant to if that makes sense.

One thing I also read years ago was no matter what style you shoot, if done exactly the same all the time then you'll be on track.


Cheers guys.

[Possumjon]

I've got this problem bad. Thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. Started trying to shoot a little competitively and cracked under pressure, still struggling with this 7 months later. Sounds like I've got the same problem as you mcdave. I'll have to track this issue down

[bucknut]

I have a similar issue. Sometimes while shooting I catch myself Short drawing.  To cure it I just draw my bow out from my face an inch or two and come in to my normal anchor then shoot. After a few shots like this it gets me back on track. I think I just get lazy. This might not help everyone, but it does help me.  It's all mental!

[KSdan]

AL- Sounds like you guys are referring to something quite similar to what both Arne Moe and Joel Turner seem to be getting at.  

It is about shot sequence. IN the logical sequence, the FIRST step is to draw and anchor. THEN you start the aim. This was new to me this past year (after 25 years of trad).  I shoot excellent when I can do it.  

Bridging from target to real "when it counts" shooting is now my practice. Arne gave me some great tips.

Dan in KS

I probably had the worse TP of all time, the good ole rush of conflicting thoughts and a rip release at varied lengths.  I beat it, but I still have to watch for the other short draw, where I open up my shoulders towards the target enough to affect my draw length. While I practice drawing off line and then correct the aim after I reach a solid anchor, the need for it has never shown up in over 50 years of hunting.  My aim is tightened up in the last 5 inches of draw, with just a slight hesitation at anchor, that is when I shoot my best. When I start messing with that typical for me shot, I shoot worse, some days much worse, but at least there is no TP.

[Sam McMichael]

I've never had an issue with short drawing per se, but rather, I sometimes tend to reach proper anchor and then give a little extra draw at release. I snatch it a bit, which I guess is a subconscious measure to prevent short draw. However, it guarantees that I pluck the string. Hopefully, this exercise in concentration may help that flaw as well.

[EWill]

I struggle with this also, sometimes though because of the short draw I also notice that it causes what I call a lazy or floating anchor, not good.
Mostly this happens at the medium range targets, 25-35 yds, because my brain is screaming " don't shoot high, you'll lose your arrow ".  It's all mental for me. When I'm not struggling and I get to a solid anchor it is as if I am locked on and I feel like I just can't miss. Sadly this doesn't happen as often as I would like. I work on keeping it under control every time I practice.
Two of the things I do is, go back to the fundamentals and shoot at 40+ yds. Long distance shooting helps a lot for me, not to mention just plain fun.

[ChuckC]

I have been working out issues for quite a while, to the point I shifted from righty to lefty.  I wish I had done that sooner in life.

I have to agree with much of what was said above and those articles made me think deeply about what I faced, what I went thru to change it, and how I am still changing.

First. .  for ME ( only me) target panic has nothing to do with fear. .  of anything.  IT has to do with the brain taking over the shot sequence and making me do things I really don't want to do.

I have always shot "instinctive".  I tried other forms but couldn't do it, probably due in very large part to the TP not really letting me.

I don't know how to "beat" TP except by changing hands.  I tried a lot of ways and it beat me.  But so far I don't have any aspect of it left handed and I am doing my very best to not allow it to happen.

I believe, based upon MY circumstances, that TP of the sort I had may be more prevelent in instinctive shooters.  Other forms are likely more prevalent in other forms, as they address other issues and problems.

The article opened my eyes about one aspect that I had been working on, but never formally acknowledged.   All these years, and I really never knew what my sight picture should be.  I always concentrated on the target, but that didn't do it.  

I know have a sight picture.   When I draw, anchor and hold ( I don't hold long and I don't intentionally gap or point), I have to see a certain picture, THEN I do my aiming.

My aiming is the concentration on my target of interest, not gapping .  

Of note.  When I drew the bow righty, if I was notably NOT going to shoot or if I closed my eyes or just didn't focus on anything, I could draw the bow, hold it.. let it down, no issue.  

But if I was aiming. . .  I could not control it at all.

Something about that aiming at the wrong time thing hurt me.  The shoot sequence.  For some, me, it was important and I didn't know it.

Kinda hard to know what your sight picture should look like until you have one established. Not something that can really be put into an article.

There is a lot more to shooting well than just picking up a bow.
ChuckC

[LBR]

If you can, attend one of Rod Jenkin's clinics to fully understand what Al is referring to.  If you can't, get Masters of the Barebow Volume III.

I don't pretend to be anywhere in the realm of Rod when it comes to coaching or shooting, but I have a lot of first-hand experience trying to fix problems with the NASP team I help coach.  Rod's advice has been priceless.  The fix is usually simple, just requires a commitment from the shooter.

Basically, as I understand it, we all put too much emphasis on the target--whether it be paper, foam, or flesh.  

What we fail to realize is that target--regardless of what it's made of--doesn't have a thing to do with the shot--all it does is stop the arrow.

Everything that matters happens at the spot where the arrow is released--good or bad.  (Ok, the animal can move, but we have no control over that--I'm referring to what we can control).

If we are in full control of the shot process, then there's really no excuse for a bad shot--right?  Easier said than done, but to me that's what it boils down to.  

If we can make the exact same shot, every time, then we will hit the same spot--every time.  Aiming is just a matter of very small adjustments--a tiny part of the shot in general--but we tend to make it the focus of the shot--and that's where we screw up.  IMO.

[ozy clint]

Originally posted by Phillip Fields:
It was a good article. If it works for you then use it.

In the same issue G. Fred Asbell writes " My method of shooting involves beginning my concentration on the target for a moment before I begin drawing my bow. As I draw, I continue to aim by concentrating on that target. When I reach full-draw, my hand-eye coordination has put everything together and I shoot."

WOW, that pretty much sums up my shot sequence.
i almost subconsciously set a gap before i start to draw and not at full draw.

[LongStick64]

For myself, I suffered mightily with the short draw and for me it was the focus on getting to my facial anchor point. Once I worked more on achieving a stronger back/shoulder alignment anchor, and using the facial anchor as secondary, the result was no longer a short draw. Being stronger on the shot boosted my confidence, which allows me to control when I aim and when I release

[MikeNova]

My one question is on a deer not picking a spot till your at full draw. Seems due to lighting, distance etc sometimes it's not easy for me at least to pick a spot on a deer. Seems like if I waited till full draw I might hold it overly long trying to find a spot. As I'm writing this I'm thinking that's the way I did in fact shoot a compound. But I didn't really pick a spot with bow sights I put the dot in the lung area and shot.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

Reading about this problem and how it affects other guys is encouraging, and I appreciate the tips for beating it.

[TSP]

MikeNova makes a good point.  For HUNTING, the draw-anchor-think-adjust-aim-adjust-shoot kind of approach has some drawbacks.  Heavier hunting bows and imperfect field circumstances often don't allow, or at least don't favor, careful shot self-analysis and last second form tweaking.  

I think we all tend to slow down a bit when we practice on targets, even if we are primarily hunters, just to figure out what works or how well it's working.  But it's mostly just a practice bale effort.  Good target shooters rarely hurry whether just practicing OR during competition, and why should they?  Paper bullseyes and 3D targets provide no unexpected surprises and they aren't going anywhere.  There's no reason NOT to slow down and think it all through.  And those sweet-pulling target bows sure make it alot easier to do.

For hunting, shooters usually can't afford to methodically break down each shot component DURING the shot.  The shot steps best be simple as well as effective, providing a fast but still accurate 'auto pilot' approach.  Short drawing will be the least of a hunter's woes/worries if the shot itself is too complicated to execute reliably and consistently.  For this reason a quick and simple 'sequence' to building the hunting shot has it's advantages, just as much as a more carefully compartmentalized/calculated approach provides dividends on the target line.  

There are of course many overlaps between good target shooting and good hunting form, but there are also some very real and practical differences to consider.  Like H. Hill once said (sort of)...target shooting and hunting aren't the same thing.  Best to be mindful of this when developing your own shooting approach.

I didn't see the recent article by Denny S. Jr. but I recall when Denny shot his longbows with a pretty short draw length...sort of 'tucked in' at the shoulder.  A little odd, but it sure didn't seem to effect his accuracy much.  He could still hit what he shot at.

Form discussions and 'solutions' aren't always as concrete as they appear...but they're always an interesting read.