Expanding

[Jock Whisky]

I've struggled with the concept of expanding, trying to understand just what it is. I was fooling around with it the other day and may have gotten a bit closer.

In the past I've tried rotating my elbow around my shoulder. It worked ok. But recently I've been moving my shoulder back around as well. This seems to get the rhomboids contracting a lot more than just rotating the elbow. Is this any closer to "expansion"

[moebow]

Yes, closer.  There are many ways to describe expansion.  One description will work for one person and another will work for someone else. But they may not agree with each other's description OR perception.

Expansion is usually described as an "internal" movement, more felt than seen.  The elbow at that point may be as far around as it can go, so thinking move the shoulder back a little more will give the FEEL of your chest sticking out (or "expanding") a little.  Remember "internal" movement and NOT some large "visible" movement.

Arne

[Sam McMichael]

I'm not sure I understand this idea of expansion. I was experimenting with the way I draw a bow and was using a lot more chest/shoulder involvement. I felt a strong expansion of the chest muscles in particular but felt a slackening of back muscles. This was not good both in terms of accuracy and the fact that I tore up a chest muscle that still bothers me after six years. Is what I am describing consistent with this discussion of expansion as you define it, or was it simply a stupid move that screwed me up for a long time?

[moebow]

Sam,

You are not alone.  Expansion is a pretty detailed step in the shot sequence of the NTS BUT, MAYBE overstressed in many cases by those of us that shoot heavier Trad style bows as opposed to lighter target style bows.  If "expansion" or its thought works for you fine but if it is or causes a problem, leave it out.

Ideally (and again referring to the NTS)  At "holding" (which happens AFTER "transfer")  Your arms and chest muscles will be at their LOWEST tension level -- essentially relaxed with the back holding the bow weight.

IF the muscles in front (chest) are relaxed, you cannot pull (tear up) or injure them.  Also, the back MUST take over the bow weight, IF they "slacken" you will be collapsing - most likely.

IMO, the best way to learn expansion is with a VERY light bow or even the rubber band I show in one of my videos.  Trying it for the first few times with a heavier bow (> 30 or so pounds) can easily lead to poor execution of the step and injury.

I would go so far as to say, get to "holding" set your aim, and pull through the shot like you would with a form master.  Don't stress over the "expansion" step BUT if you MUST, find a coach that can physically and in person guide you through the process.

Trying to execute a misunderstood (or poorly understood) step IS a good way to form a bad habit and even cause injury.  I'll say again, "expansion" is a detailed step in a very formal training system but it is just that.  A step of explanation.  Most that have a good release and follow through are pretty much automatically "expanding" without thinking, stressing, or having it as a conscious step in their shot.

I've suggested this before but maybe it bears repeating here; " Think move the bones, NOT activate specific muscles!"   IF you have moved your bones to the right place, you will automatically have the muscle tension you need.  Thinking "activate a muscle," is actually very counter productive.  MOVE BONES!

Arne

[Jock Whisky]

Interesting points Arne especially re the heavier trad bows. I was having a hard time with my 60# recurve but when I dropped to 50 pounds I found the ability to "move bones " as you call it improved immensely. So did my shooting.
So my conclusion is that when it comes to expansion and shot control, even though I have no trouble drawing my 60#, I'm overbowed. The 50# is much easier to control, hold after transference and shoot accurately.

[moebow]

Jock,

I think your last post is correct.  Others have mentioned in other places that a person can learn to shoot with 40# or more if they are an average adult male.  I THINK that most can PULL the bow but can they really set alignments (with bones) consistently?  I do believe there is a BIG difference in being able to PULL a bow (physically just muscle it back) and being able to draw the bow and set consistent alignments.

I also believe that once a person has learned the "move the bones" into alignment technique, they will be able to use that to go back up in weight.

That's what happened to me.  When I started learning this stuff, I had been shooting for years with typical draw weights 55-65#.  BUT, as many, I was aging and slowly lowering draw weight (to 45-50#) since I just couldn't muscle it as well anymore.  AND, I was a little insulted when my instructor suggested I was over bowed -- What an insult -- NOT --TRUTH.

Once I had pretty much mastered this technique (NTS, BEST, rotational draw, angular draw, whatever you want to call it)and learned to MOVE THE BONES and use the bones for support to hold the bow open -- I easily was able to move back up in weight.  'Course now, I see no need to shoot 65# anymore (although I can easily) and find a sweet spot at 50#.

I am the first to admit that there are LOTS of techniques for shooting out there.  They are NOT wrong and many really good shooters use many of them.  I just feel that when LEARNING (or "re-learning"), learning to move bones takes a LOT of the strength issues, muscle strain issues, and potential injury issues out of the picture.  Leading to a more enjoyable experience.

Arne