Shooting Frustration

[Wolftrail]

I'am getting sick of shooting instinctive, it does not really seem to be working out to well.  The problem is consistency.  Does gap shooting work ok at any distance. I have done it at 20 yards with great success but what about 25-30-35-40 etc.. Is it a guessing game shooting Gap at various distances with a Trad bow.?

[McDave]

My experience is similar to yours, in some respects.  Instinctive shooting only took me so far, and I could never achieve the accuracy or consistency that I wanted.  Others, like Terry Green, are able to achieve a much higher level of accuracy shooting instinctively than I can.

Gap shooting works well for me at my point on distance, and maybe 10 yards on each side of that.  My point on distance using my regular anchor is 45 yards, so I can use gap accurately at that anchor from about 35-55 yards.  Not really optimal for hunting.  Closer than 35 or further than 55, the gaps get too large for me to be very accurate.

Recently I have began experimenting with different anchors, and came up with a higher anchor that gives me a point on of 25 yards.  So now, by changing anchors, I can shoot gap accurately from about 15-55 yards.

I'm interested in what anchor you use when you're shooting gap at 20 yards, and what your point on is?

[newhouse114]

McDave, I shoot very similar to you except rather than change my anchor, I shoot 3 under or split finger at different ranges.

[longbow fanatic 1]

My first question would be to define your archery goals, which I'm sure you have already done. If you're unable to achieve the goals you want to reach with the aiming system you're using to meet those goals, try a different style of shooting. As has been said here, for the closer hunting distances gap shooting can be problematic. To solve that, you could try using a fixed crawl. If you want to stay with the gapping method, try shooting a full length arrow, raising your nocking point and experiment with you anchor point (as Jimmy Blackmon says). Here is a quick video related to your frustration.

   

[Wolftrail]

I shoot target and 3-D hopefully down the road I will hunt. At any rate I would like to stick with one method if it can be done.

I watched the video fanatic 1.  Good stuff, one thing is I'am probably shooting to short of an arrow, they are only about 29-29 1/2" long and I'm shooting split.  Having said that maybe using longer arrows and a higher anchor point may help.
I think that using a combination of point on aim and instinctive works better for me at this point in time. If I try to Gap shoot it will over complicate it.
Also I will try using 2 under and let the index finger go along for the ride.  Tried 3 under did not like and there are other issues associated with it besides that.

Thanx for the tips guys, very informative.

[reddogge]

Just a quick note on gap shooting. It's not a guessing game because you work your gaps out for all of the yardages beforehand, write them down and learn them.

Next you learn to gap at the arrow and not the target so you are dealing with 1" gaps, 3/4" gaps, 1/2" gaps, etc. and not 20", 15", 13", etc. Much more easily managed.

It is a system but you must work at it and put the time in to get your gaps down. Once you do that it is very repeatable and accurate for both hunting and 3-D.

[Terry Green]

Instinctive is NOT for everyone....find what works for you.

[Wolftrail]

Originally posted by reddogge:
Just a quick note on gap shooting. It's not a guessing game because you work your gaps out for all of the yardages beforehand, write them down and learn them.

Next you learn to gap at the arrow and not the target so you are dealing with 1" gaps, 3/4" gaps, 1/2" gaps, etc. and not 20", 15", 13", etc. Much more easily managed.

It is a system but you must work at it and put the time in to get your gaps down. Once you do that it is very repeatable and accurate for both hunting and 3-D.

"It's not a guessing game because you work your gaps out for all of the yardages beforehand...."
Makes sense but in a hunting situation there are no pegs stating yardage.

[moebow]

"Makes sense but in a hunting situation there are no pegs stating yardage."

True, but now you need a way to estimate yardage.  Try to find a way to estimate 10 yards then it becomes a matter of how many 10 yard increments there are in the shot distance. Then apply the appropriate gap.

As in all things, it takes some practice but you can estimate distance to an acceptable degree of accuracy. With practice.

Arne

[Bladepeek]

And, as was alluded to above, arrow length can shorten your point-on distance. I draw just about 28" even, depending on bow weight and grip design. I don't mind a 31" arrow hanging 3" in front of the bow and it definitely shortens my point on distance down to about 22 yds. That's shooting 3-under with middle finger at the corner of my mouth and a secondary anchor on the heel of my thumb.

I realize that much arrow hanging out in space would drive some people crazy, but it works well for me.

Down side is that I shot the "American shoot" at Fenton, MI last weekend and wished for a much shorter arrow. At 60 yds, my gap was somewhere up in the clouds   :(

[Wolftrail]

I'm shooting 3 under now so that has increased my accuracy in a big way. Using a 30" arrow at 28" draw works best for me.
Although Anything over 30 yards is going high.  Should I shoot split at that distance.?

[Wolftrail]

ooops double post

[riser]

I gap off the riser.  More specifically, I gap off the top of the strike plate.  

It seems to work for me at this stage.  Just offering how I do it.

I shoot 40-50 lb draw weights at my draw length ( 29.5-30"), with a 3 under  Bateman tab. I shoot local 3d, and I hope to deer hunt this year.

I shoot xx75 Easton aluminum arrows.  Mostly 1916 and 2016 left full length.  My points are 145 grains. ( sometimes 170 grain, sometimes I play with 125 grain).

I set my bow up for a "zero gap" off the top off the strike plate for 20 yards.  I have 5-6 recurves and 1  R/D longbow. The height of the strike plate above the arrow is just about 1 inch.  This gives me my "elevation reference."  For a 20 yard shot, I hold it just where I want it-POI is level to top of strike plate.  Left/right is determined by looking down the arrow shaft (not at the point-I don't really see it (or look for it), as I don't gap off the arrow tip/shaft end-just off the strike plate top.

In essence there is an invisible rectangle formed that is my "sight."  It is vertically above the arrow shaft, and horizontal with the top of the strike plate.  I can play with this, and being right handed, if I put a heavier point on, it makes the shaft weaker, and impact lower.  I can manipulate this enough to have the impact point nearly ON the top of the strike plate-but I prefer the "invisible rectangle" approach directly over the arrow.

What is interesting is that if I shoot further away (~27 to 30 yards, about the traditional/barebow max distance at my local 3d club), I hold over about 1 inch for every yard over 20 yards, so I'd hold 5-7 inches over the desired impact point-using the top of my strike plate as my elevation reference @ ~ 25-27 yards.  On a deer-sized target, I hold the top of the strike plate on the top of the target, and the arrow falls into the "high point area" (at least it's supposed to). I have to add a bit more elevation with 2016 arrows at 25 to 27+ yards as the arrow is heavier and slower, and doesn't shoot as flat as the 1916 shafts.

On shorter shots (~ 12-15 yards), I hold UNDER about 1 inch/ yard less than 20 yards.  So, at 15 yards, I hold the top of the strike plate about 4-5 inches lower than where I want to hit.  On a deer-sized target, the top of the strike plate is on the bottom of the body.

I also adjust my left/right with the thickness of the strike plate for each bow, (plus bare shaft tuning for weak/stiff with different arrow tip weights.)

I bare shaft tune for nock height.  I like to run my nock as high as possible, as long as I get good arrow flight, because this helps to match the impact at 20 yards with the top of the strike plate level.  First I find the point were fletched and non-fletched arrows have similar impacts (high/low leveling out), then I bring the nock up to get the impact level with the top of my strike plate at 20 yards. My typical nock height above center is ~ +3/4" )5/8  to 1 inch).

I can also adjust the impact height a bit with my anchor point (I mean, we ALL can do that-nothing new there). So, there is quite a bit of adjustment available to make it work/tune it /"sight it in" for 20 yards.

Sometimes a heavier arrow just works better for this. I have a 64" Samick Journey with 35# limbs, that I pull 42# @ 30 inches.  It shoots well with both 1916 and 2016 shafts (I wrote about it in the tradgang product bow review section as an reply to another persons Samick Journey's "review in progress"). Overall, I can shoot the 1916s with 125, 145 and 175 grain tips and do well. 2016s with 145 grain tips fly well, but shoot lower )that's ok with my style).  

I have a 1959 Bear Kodiak Special 40 # / amo 68" that pulls ~ 45# @ 30", and it responds well with 1916  and 2016 xx75 aluminum shafts using gapping off the top of the strike plate-so it's not just one bow.  I have a 1959 Bear Polar (47#@ 28"  64" amo) that is set up the same way.  Shoots 1916 and 2016 well.  So, all these bows are set up to shoot almost the same.  It seems to work for me at this stage of my shooting.

The other reference point I find for each bow/arrow combo is the point on distance.  It seems to be about 33-36 yards.  Sometimes the compound guys chide me.  We shoot weekly at our club in a fun league, and I'm the only recurve guy.  They shoot from ~ 32  to 40+ yards.  They joke that it's easier to hit the target from the 27 yard (or closer) stake.  I offer them my bow to "show me how easy it is."  No takers.  I can then step back to their ~35 yard marker, shoot point on distance, and do pretty well.  Often I can land an 8.  In some ways, it's easier, as I do use the point as the aiming point.  

Anyway, it's good to know the point on distance, even with gapping off the top of the strike plate.

I'm no expert.  I'm not at great shot.  I'm just offering what I do, and how I do it.  I find it rewarding and fun.  I shoot in my backyard just about daily, and try new things and reinforce other things.  I am averaging 7+ points on my 3d scores this year (10-8-5 scoring), and my average is coming up.

  ( UPDATE:  Shot a 30 shot 3d  competition this past weekend ("all deer targets" , so granted bigger scoring areas for higher scores...).  Finished with a 260  ( 122 on front 15,  138 on back 15).  avg = 8+  Used my stress-cracked 1959 68" 40# Kodiak Special with 1916 full length xx75 shafts and 145 grain points.  Used this method of shooting.  Set personal highs at the shoot.  Distances were ~6 yards to 28+ yards).  
 
So far, I like the concept of holding either to the top or the bottom of the deer's body for the impact area. It narrows the aiming area for me.  Hopefully that will help during hunting season.

Now, all I have to do is make my release uniform...  

Videos that have helped me:  Jimmy Blackmon "Gap compromise" (and others).  DeWayne Martin and high nock height,  Arne Moe form videos, Wedge series,  Jeff Cavanaugh,  Wolfie Hughes, and others.

I tried gap shooting, using the end of the arrow shaft ( or point) as the reference, but I didn't really like it.  I wasn't "seeing the target", just the dirt/leaves/ hoof.   Gapping off the strike plate allows me to see the target, and use it as a reference for height adjustment.  My reasoning for liking this more is that if/when I hunt with my bow, I will see the quarry "better", and be more aware of what it's doing. (Just my theory).

If you are NOT shooting IBO ruled 3d, and "just hunting and recreational shooting, you have more options with strike plate height.  Higher strike plate reference will "lower" or close the gap off the top of the strike plate.  Try something like 1 1/8" to 1.5" high strike plates.  You can also set your reference distance / zero gap @ strike plate top for something like 25 yards.  Use the best set up for your needs.

Good luck.

[McDave]

Interesting post.  I also like to experiment with these things.  Do you use the same kind of strike plate on all of your bows, or do you have to make adjustments in your aiming for different bows with different strike plates?  Does your invisible rectangle tilt (in your mind) as you cant the bow?

[riser]

Originally posted by McDave:
Interesting post.  I also like to experiment with these things.  Do you use the same kind of strike plate on all of your bows, or do you have to make adjustments in your aiming for different bows with different strike plates?  Does your invisible rectangle tilt (in your mind) as you cant the bow?

Strike plates are different thickness of leather and heights, to adjust high/low, left/right arrow impact (plus adjusting point weight for L/r, stiff/ week, and nock height for elevation tweaking.  My thinnest strike plate is less than 1/16" thick.  Thickest is about 1/8".

I try to set each bow to have a 20 yard impact using the "invisible rectangle" set up (gapping off the riser).  I guess set up would be different depending on how the bow is tillered. I THINK the most tiller on any of my bows is + 1/8 (more distance on upper fade out to string by 1/8" compared to distance from lower limb fade out to string.

All of this is shooting 3 under.  If I shoot spit finger, the arrow of course impacts MUCH higher (18" inches higher???).  

You can also incorporate a fixed crawl (tied on nock for finger position below the nocked arrow). This lowers arrow impact to get elevation near top of strike plate-or you can string walk.   These options aren't legal for IBO 3d "traditional".  You can string/face walk in the unaided recurve IBO class.

You can make the strike plate higher too, to coordinate arrow impact at whatever distance you set things up.  If you shoot in IBO 3d competition, the strike plate  has a maximum height of 1" above the nocked arrow on the shelf.

IBO Trad rules
   IBO rules  
  18 16. Traditional (TRD)  A recurve or longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bow string using a glove,  finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating  devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor poi nt for each shot and the index finger must  contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of  the arrow. Face and/or string walking are  not permitted. No sighting device of any kind  may be used. There shall be no markings  on the bow or bowstring (intentional or  accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may  be used. All arrows must be the same length and weight.   Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in  field points; wood arrows may have glue- on points. All arrows must have at least three  (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4)  inches long. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or  built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off  the hand or shelf of the riser only.   An arrow  side plate (if used) may only extend one (1)   inch above the arrow.  An arrow  side plate (if used) may only extend one (1)   inch above the arrow.  The shelf may be built  up and the side plate may be built out with a  hard  material  that  has  a  minimal  consistency   of  wood.    The  shelf  and  side  plate  may  be   covered with a softer material that is no thicker than 1/8 inch.  TRD archers will shoot from  the orange stake.                  

I try not to cant.  I try to shoot pretty vertical-sometimes I cant a bit in seeing if that helps take torque off the string with my draw hand.  I do play a bit canting 45 degrees or more, but that's more of a "what if" scenario in case of overhead/branch obstructions.  Whatever the small amount I do cant, I guess I just just the "invisible rectangle" approach ( keeping right angle / 90 degree "box" for reference, not a diagonal vertical line).  

Again, just me playing with a gapping method.  It's not gospel.  Just one approach.

[Firstlight]

You can always try split vision if you don't want to full on gap.

Even practising split vision will make your instinctive more accurate, over time.

Hold at full draw a second or two,  see out of focus arrow tip and target, enjoy the site picture, make reference of the string blur, then let down.

Do that a few times, then do it and release an arrow.  Do it enough and everyone will think your instinctive because your not holding (if you don't want to) and you have ingrained it into your muscle memory and you will shoot more accurately, without needing to be aware of the arrow.

If you are having an off day it will be easy to self correct because you know how to slow your shot down by choice and "see" the arrow (split vision) like howard hill and bryon ferguson write about.

...gapstinctive

[Captain*Kirk]

I couldn't shoot consistently instinctive to save my life, so I settled for gapping and did quite well.
After a year or so of this, I tried instinctive again and was surprised to find it all came together. Now I shoot instinctive with very good results. I think my brain just needed 'calibrating' and it took a while.
Bottom line: Do what works for you.