Buff arrow-what do you think, boys?

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Here's what I've come down on-after weight adjustment for bareshafting I have a 1010 grain double aluminum with 11/32 O.D. that bareshafts fantastic out to 30 yds.  This was setup for 160 grain field points so I'll probably look at STOS.  Chronographs at 152 fps.  Interesting note-a Widow 5 lbs heavier that bareshafts these arrows "acceptably" only gave 6 fps more.  I'm not sure I want to buy fps at one per pound right now.  

Rick-drop me an email and we can discuss your possible metal lathe project-I have a guy with 30 yrs experience as a tool and die maker and 40 yrs behind a recurve that likes to play with his metal lathe!

Ryan

[macbow]

Got to hear Monty Browning speak about his heavy arrows at our United Bowhunters Banquet here in Mo.
His latest hunting arrows are Carbons filled with #12 stranded copper wire with the plastic coating.
Very heavy and since they straighten so fast there is good penetration.
These were very effective on water Buffalo.
Ron

[Rick McGowan]

Ryan, after I "bounced" an arrow off a buff, I would have been very happy to have an extra 6fps!    I'm playing around with new buff arrows AGAIN, I will get back to you on the lathe project! You should also look at the 160 Grizzly, its smaller than the "El Grande" heads and stronger and I can speak from personal experience that they will kill a water buffalo!
Monty still uses the fish arrows, he just used the carbons on buffalo. They still have a busted one hanging on the wall of the meat room in Australia that came from his buffalo. It had the solid lead wire with a spiral thread wrap insert. You can see it real good now! I can't shoot his arrows, they are so underspined for me that they come off the bow sideways, it was so scary I only did it once. They work for him though. Rick

[Tom Lagatol]

Rick, I'm sorry if I'm off topic here but I'm dying to ask how far you 'buff shootin guys shoot those 1k gr arrows. Even from an 80+ pound bow they have to drop like sinkers past 25yds or so. So how close do you get to those critters before ya let one fly?  Thanks TomL

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Tom

The question of "drop" is real complex, and as much related to maintained momentum as it is to original velocity of the arrow.  In other words, a slow, heavy projectile will maintain velocity, and hence "drop" less at longer distances than a light, fast one, relative to original velocity.  This is all related to gravity, air resistance, and momentum/energy.  In REALITY, at 35 yds and under I doubt there are very many people that would notice much "drop" difference between a 900-1000 gr arrow at 150-160 FPS and a 650 grain arrow at 170-180 FPS.  Think of it this way, a 1000 gr arrow from a 75 lb bow is about 13.3 grains of arrow wt per pound of bow wt.  Many people shoot 10-12 grains per pound in thier hunting bows-the difference is not that great.

Ryan

[Tom Lagatol]

Thanks Ryan. I experimented some a while back with heavy arrows, which to me are above 800grs. When I got to the 1k area I noted (totally unscientifically)more of a noticable drop at 25yds and beyond. Now I was shooting 70-75# at the time. I didn't go beyond that distance.(as my neighboors hate it when my arrows get close to their cats or dogs..can't understand the cat thing though)

Here's another question...How about FOC as related to the total arrow weight. Is there a "place", percentage wise that too much FOC is unacceptable? Thanks.  TomL

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Tom-I am no expert on heavy arrows..Rick and other guys that have done alot more messing around with them may have better ideas about FOC but here's what I did......I measured the balance pt on my 2216/Snuffer hunting arrow-11.5 inches behind the back of the broadhead.  For my heavy arrow I glued a 125 gr bullet point into the NOCK end of the inner arrow and that gave me a balace pt 11.0 inches behind the field point (using 300 grains in the point).  This VASTLY improved my bareshaft flight.  The FOC will vary alot, however, with spine, and I think the guys that use carbons inside (higher overall spine) use alot more FOC.

[crane]

Ryan- Can you tell us why the heavy Grizzly Stiks would not work for you? I am curious as to what they would weigh and spine. On another thread it was reportrd that they have a HUGE range of spine.Sorry, if I could make the PBS meeting a deal maybe could have been made. Bob Butler.

[Rick McGowan]

Tom, I practice all the time at ranges up to 38 yards in my backyard. Yes these arrows are going to drop more than lighter ones, but if you shoot them enough, the internal calculator makes the corrections for you. We do try to get within 25 yards of the buffalo, but it isn't easy getting that close. We did have several help us out by walking in our direction last season, they were shot at 10 and 12 yards, TO close really. The one at 12 yards was still coming closer and when shot with a .416 Rigby, dropped in its tracks. The one at 10 yards was hit to high with an arrow and is still alive as far as I know.
When you start getting into these extreme arrows, you really notice how important all the things we take for granted with "normal" weight arrows are. I went to LOTS of effort to get my buffalo arrows flying well and they are the BEST flying arrows I have ever seen. I can shoot them are 35 yards with NO fletching and they fly and group great. I can shoot bullet holes through paper at five feet and I have never had an arrow do that. They are spined perfectly, the foc is 12%, which I find is best for me. The arrows are very close in weight and I even adjust the nocks for consistant fit on the string. All this may sound a bit anal, but it works and I have seen lots of things that didn't. Rick

[Ryan Rothhaar]

Quick back of the envelope calculation came up this way:

FOC heavy arrow: 12.7%
Regular hunting arrow: 11%

About the Grizzlystiks-I couldnt see a way to get the weight up to Rick's advised 900 gr so I didnt work with them at all.  Plus, with the setup I have now I can get raw shafts (even with 2 aluminums each) for around $60 a dozen as compared to $180-200 for Grizzlystiks-yeah, I'm that cheap!

Ryan

[Shawn Leonard]

I do not hunt anything at this time larger then Whitetail but it seems possible to get wood arrow up to 900 grains. I have some laminated birch 95#-100# spine that weigh 600 grains bareshaft, after dipping, add 210 grain head and feathers and nocks and I am up to 860ish and that is a 28" arrow bop. I have shot them out of a 69# bow at 27-1/2" and they fly stiff, so I figure a 72-75#er they would fly well. Is there a reason to shoot aluminum or carbon over wood? It does not seem easier, with all the adding weights and stuff and doulbling up on the aluminums and I paid $32 a dozen for my birch including S+H! Just curious! Thanks!! Shawn

[Rick McGowan]

Shawn, its close to impossible to get a reliable source of heavy, high spine, small diameter, quality wood shafts. Rick

[Shawn Leonard]

Allegheny arrow woods, has them and with notice can usually come up with several dozen above 95#s at 11/32nds. I found it funny the 23/64ths spined less then the 11/32's. Just a thought, I got 80-85s and the weigh 740's for a finished arrow with 125 up front. Shawn

[Kelly]

Rick;

What are your thoughts on the Ribtek broadheads for Buffalo? I would think the 190 grain one would be good.

[Rick McGowan]

Hi Kelly, I really like the 190 Ribtecks, they are not expensive and are among the easiest to sharpen heads I have come across. The profile of the 190 is nearly identical to the 190 Grizzly, HOWEVER in my testing they just don't penetrate as well as the Grizzly. I tried everything I could think of, including filling in the spaces of the ferrule bands with various glues and putty, they just have more resistance to penetration. In my tests the 190 RT did penetrate better than the 160 RT, both are the same except for the length, so the angle of the cutting surfaces is very important. I'll still use the Ribbies on pigs and such, just not on buffalo. Rick

[Kelly]

Hi Rick;

Just curious as to your medium used with the penetration testing?

[Rick McGowan]

Kelly, I tried a bunch of different things, including ethafoam, wet sand, damp sawdust etc. The one thing I discovered in my penetration tests was the the order of the heads did not change, that is the best penetrating head in one medium was the best in all and by roughly the same percentage the only thing that varied was the overall amount of penetration. Rick