P&Y African arrows question.

[Liquid Amber]

Who made the arrows for Pope and Young's African expedition?

[JavelinaHink]

I believe they made their own arrows and used the Large Barbed Machine Ferrule broadhead that they designed for California By-Products, San Francisco, California. They both also made 6 each Rhino Heads= Young's 7.10" Pope's 7.14"  

[Cody Roiter]

Like Bill said they made there own for the trip...

Cody

[jcar315]

If you haven't read his book Saxton Pope goes into great detail about his arrows etc and how many they took along on the trip. Amazing!

[Liquid Amber]

The reason I asked is that I don't believe Pope, Young and White made "all" their equipment, particularly White.  I think someone else provided some of the arrows and maybe some of White's bows.

Some comments I've gathered from two old letters suggest that may be so, but I don't want to "poison" the water by mentioning a name, hoping someone might have some information on this individual or individuals.

White talks about making equipment in "Lions in the Path," as well as Pope does in his book.  But I just don't believe White made that much equipment prior to the Africa deal.  Just curious.

[Cody Roiter]

Hey where could I get a copy of Lions in the Path as u know me ciff I am big into archery history I still have that copy of the hill stuff u sent me.. Let me..

Cody

[aromakr]

Cliff:
Get a hold of Gene Wensel, he might be able to shed some light on this. He and I discussed Pope & Young's African trip a couple of times. He seemed to have a lot more information than I did.
Bob

[Tox Collector]

Cassius Styles???

[Tox Collector]

The reason that I guessed Styles is the fact that he knew Pope and Young well.  Dr. Pope was the one who advised him to reclaim his health after being crashing several times behind enemy lines in WWI by spending two years in a cabin deep in the forests of northern California.  

He often enjoyed the companionship of Pope, Young, Comption, Donnan Smith and others.  In Dr. Robert P. Elmer's opinion, he felt that Style's yew bows have never been excelled.  I know that if I was planning a safari to Africa to hunt large game I would want to bring the best archery tackle available.

By the way, when Saxton Pope returned from his African trip, he visited Gt. Britain.  Which British archery society did he visit and leave a bow named "BUNZI" [in Swahili it means 'stinging fly'].  Who's bow was it, and who made it?  For SA-A members, you know the answer!

[Liquid Amber]

I heard the bow is "allegedly" Pope's and in Edinburgh, Scotland.

Styles wrote that he made the arrow that White killed a lion with and that White gave him the arrow when he came back from Africa.  I assume  he made more than one arrow for White.

Ullrich wrote in a letter that Pope brought some arrows back from Africa and gave him some and that they were made by Styles.

The comments by Styles and Ullrich would indicate Styles made at least some of the arrows taken and used in Africa by Pope, Young and White.

According to Styles' diary and war records, which I have copies of, he crashed once behind enemy lines and was captured; he later escaped to Switzerland as I noted in my article in TBM on Styles.  

His fifth and final crash was in New York on July 6th, 1922.  It was another bad one and it was this crash that convinced him to take Pope's advice and head west.    

It's Interesting that three years later in July, 1925 Styles published his first article, hunting bear with the bow, in "Forest & Stream."

[Tox Collector]

As usual, you are right on the mark!  The bow in question is located in Archer's Hall in Edinburgh, which is the headquarters of the Royal Company of Archers, The Queen's Bodyguard in Scotland.  The article on the bow appears in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries for 2008, Volume 51.  

According to the article, the bow was made of osage by Art Young and used by Young on the African safari.  The bow's weight of 72 is inscribed below the handle along with the shape of a flint head.

This was an eight month safari and the article notes "The equipment they used included half a dozen bows apiece and each archer carried a hundred or more arrows.  Besides this, sufficient materials were taken to make up 2000 arrows in the field."  This goes to your point, it would have been difficult for them to make all this tackle themselves.  

The article also notes that Pope preferred yew while Young preferred the more rugged and harder osage for his heavy bows.

Elmer notes three crashes - one behind enemy lines -- I didn't know about the others.  I can't begin to think about 5 crashes.  I would need therapy after just one.  Styles was originally from New England -- was it Connecticut?

Do you have a list of the articles by Styles or are they listed the TBM article you wrote [I can't remember]?

[JavelinaHink]

Cliff & David thanks for all your post here it really is nice to read and it gets me all fired up
 

[Liquid Amber]

White's leopard mauling began with White attempting to head shoot a big male at close range.  Didn't go exactly as planned and the leopard eventually came to it's end on top of White with White's hands around it's throat.  Pretty interesting account.  No bows involved.

Styles contributed a bunch of stuff in ABR, some in YSE and others.  The following are articles I've been able to locate and acquire published in Forest & Stream and Outdoor life.  Could be more.

"Making Buckskin" - Outdoor Life - November 1943

"Bunnies to Bear with Bow and Arrow" - Forest & Stream - July 1925

"Wilderness Archery" - Forest & Stream - September 1929

Style was known for his buckskin moccasins.

Styles was stationed at Ft. Sill [he was an observer] and hunted there.  I was an artillery officer stationed at Ft. Sill in the 1960s and first hunted big game with a bow at Ft. Sill in 1967.  It's neat knowing that I may have walked some of the same trails Styles once did.

[JavelinaHink]

Thanks Cliff, I guess I need to get that book, I do have the photo of the two african's who helped out all bandaged up but not one of White afterwards, maybe he didn't want that one out in print.

Always lots to learn and not enough time.

            Bill  

[Tox Collector]

White was lucky to escape with his hide intact.

Cliff,  Thanks for the information on Styles relative to his articles in non-archery periodicals.  It's good information to have.  As I recall, at one point, he had an archery shop in Los Gatos, CA.

It is also interesting that you both served at Fort Sill [although at different times].  Although, it must have really been hot there [I am glad that I did my time at Fort Dix].

Bill, thanks for your comments!

Tox Collector

[Liquid Amber]

If you want to read Art Young's report on the African hunt, check out the following:

American Rifleman
orig.   "An Intimate View of Africa" - May 1937

Boy's Life
orig.   "Hunting lions with bow and arrow" - May 1926

Field and Stream
orig.   "African Lions and the Longbow" - July, August, September 1926

orig.   "Archery in Africa" - July 1929

[Tox Collector]

Cliff, Many thanks for this info.  Dave    

[JavelinaHink]

Cliff,

I forgot about the Rifleman issue , I have that will have to look for the others to add.

The Field & Stream issues I have on Pope & Young are Feb 1926 (Archery -Ancient and Modern)& Jan 1928(Art Young-Mountain Sheep & The Bow)both are good.

Thanks for your time in this, its nice to have the facts when one is interested in Archery.  

[Liquid Amber]

Here's the stuff on Pope I have.  Anyone have articles I'm missing on Pope or Young, I'd sure appreciate the information to add to my list.

American Forests
   “Lions and Arrows” - Pope, S. T. - October 1926

Field
   “Hunting Grizzly with bow and arrow” - Pope, Saxton - Christmas 1921
      
Field and Stream
orig.   “A Lion Hunt With The Bow” - Pope, Saxton - Dec. 1919
orig.   “Archery-Ancient and Modern” - Pope, Saxton - Feb. 1925
orig.   “The Archer of Kadiak Island” - Pope, Saxton - Nov. 1925
orig.   “Archery Hunting in 1925" - Pope, Saxton/Jan. 1968 [edited reprint of “The Archer of Kadiak Island”]

Forest and Stream
orig.   “Ishi the Archer” - Weston, E. B. [letter by Pope] - 22 Nov. 1913
orig.   “Making Indian Arrowheads” - Pope, Saxton - 20 Dec. 1913
copy   “The Bow of Yew” Pope, Saxton - Feb. 1917
copy   “Hunting grizzly(bears) with the bow” - Pope, Saxton - Oct. 1920

Outers
   “The Ballistics of Archery” - Pope, Saxton - April 1921

Outing
orig.   “Hunting with the Longbow” - Pope, Saxton - April 1919

Sunset
copy   “Hunting with the Longbow” - Pope, Saxton - Oct. 1917