Accuracy and Traditional Broadheads

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

I think this thread is fully applicable for us trad bowhunters, even if not fully 'trad'.

Over the last few days I've been setting up some Extreme FOC arrows for a friend, Wesley Mulkey. Wesley is a former Grorgia 3-D State Champion and, yes, he shoots a compound; in this instance a his hunting bow, set at 70#.

Wesley is an acomplished bowhunter too, with many, many deer to his credit, but he became interested in changing his hunting arrow setup after hitting three deer in the shoulder in the last two years, and losing all because his arrow failed to penetrate the shoulder bones. (He was not intentionally shooting at the shoulders; all three deer moved, jumping the string on his 300 fps+ setup). He also hit one deer in the spine last year, with an arrow that failed to penetrate, but did stun the deer. He had time to hit that one again.

Though he's an acomplished target archer, Wesley had never heard of bare-shaft tuning (or what Extreme FOC arrows could/would do). In fact, for his 'fine tuning' Wesley had always leaned towards tuning the bow to the arrow, rather than the other way around. Mostly, he started out merely intertested in finding/using a stronger BH and getting a bit more penetration with his hunting arrows.

OK, long story made short. I helped him bare shaft tune some Extreme FOC arrows. He was amazed that he could shoot 2" 30 yard groups with bare shafts, but neither he nor I was prepared for what was to follow. He sighted in with the fletched field points, then we changed out the 190 gr. field points for 190 Gr. Grizzly BH's (three 4" RW feathers, helically fletch). First three shots, from 20 yards: an under 1" center-to-center group. These three shots were on three seperate dots, with all three shots (entire shaft diameter) falling completely within the center scoring ring! A fluke? Nope. He retrieved the arrows and did it again! Then back to thirty yards. The group opened up to just over one and a half inches. At forty yards he still kept every shot WELL INSIDE the 3" target dot!

So, it looks like a he won't ever be able to use BH accuracy as an excuse ... and, at least for both he and I, it put firmly to rest the often-heard contention that traditional BH's simply can't be shot as accurately as the 'modern broadheads'.

We've also been testing the setup's penetration a bit, and I'll wager that he won't ever again have a penetration problem on a deer - or many other critters, for that matter! Wesley's promised an article for GON (you Georgia folks will know that one), and possible some other publications, sometime after he's downed a few animals with it - and, since he's seen what the setup does in testing, he plans to aim all his shots at shoulder bones! Should be interesting.

It ain't all trad, but the results have implications for us: right arrow, property tuned to the bow, and broadheads REALLY ARE accurate! If you're BH's don't shoot as accurately as your field points or target arrows, don't be too quick to blame the broadhead!

Ed

[Molson]

A good post Doc and completely applicable to traditional bowhunting!  

[SCATTERSHOT]

Thanks again for all you do, Doc.

[Rangeball]

My compound shooting brother in law lost 2 "huge" bucks this fall from poor penetration shoulder shots.  One with a crimson talon, the other with a 3 blade rage mechanical.  He was sick.

I'm going to try to get him to change his ways for next season.  He's got quality arrows, ACCs, and I'm thinking the big grizzly or similar up front should suit him well  

He's pretty hard headed though  :(

[FJTOYMAN]

Yes thank you.
Can you give a little more information as to the materials used to make his arrows. What is the total grain weight and method used to achieve such?

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Carlos,

In this current 'project' we've now worked up three different setups, for three different bows. Here they are, but realize that the setup is likely to vary for every bow and each shooter, if the tuning is to be perfect. I don't have the precise final dimensions with me - keeping up with that is now Wesley's responsibility; they're his "loads". The shaft length varies a bit on each setup below, and will do so most times, so I won't even bother to try and remember them (which I can't do anyway), however, here's what I can remember, as close as I can recall.

Setup #1. Gold-Tip 75-95 shaft, 100 gr. brass insert, 75 gr. steel BH adaptor, 190 gr. point, 4" RW maximum helical 3-fletch. Weight was a bit over 650 grains. About, or a bit over, 28% FOC.

Setup #2. Gold-Tip 75-95 shaft, 100 gr. brass insert, 125 gr. steel BH adaptor, 190 gr. point, 4" RW modest-offset straight 3-fletch (had to have that for the type of rest on this bow). Weight was a bit over 700 grains. Almost 32% FOC.

Setup #3. Grizzly Stik Alaskan shaft, 100 grain brass insert (that's the 'normal' Grizzly Stik 80 gr. brass insert with a one 20 gr. add-on weight), 125 gr. steel BH adaptor, 190 gr. point, 4" RW modest-offset straight 3-fletch. Weight, and easy to remember 777 grains. A bit over 27% FOC.

Ed

[FJTOYMAN]

Hi Doc,
Thanks for the info. Have you ever tried "stuffing" the shafts this some rope? I shoot some Eason Axis 400 out of my LB. To increase the over all weight I pull the nock and stuff the shaft with 5/16 rope. It adds about 70 grains. I really don't notice an affect on the bare shaft tuning either.
FWIW. I shot the Modoc broadhead for years with my compound. (Very similar to HH heads)Both with Axis shaft and 2219s. Total weight on the 2219s was over 650 IIRC. I could shoot 5 arrows into a small desert paper plate @ 50 yards with no problem. I don't know if you would consider those heads as a traditional head but as long as they spin true on a tester and my arrows were tuned I never noticed any lack of accuracy. I also didn't notice a differnce which way they were set, ie horizontal, vertical or any where in between.
Thanks again, I love to read your work.
Carlos

[killinstuff]

I just can't imagine a deer not killed by a hit to the spine from an arrow going 300fps. I dropped a full grown Bison in it's tracks a few weeks ago with a spine shot using a 60lb longbow, a footed cedar arrow weighing 620gr with the 160gr Stos broadhead. The broadhead is still staight and ready for action. Doc, I beleive what you say about stout two blades and heavy arrows up front.

[Curtiss Cardinal]

At the last 3D shoot of the year here I was shooting PSE Carbon Force 300 shafts with 432 grains up front 200 grain fieldpoint, 32 grain insert and 200 grains of weights screwed on. The compound guys kept mentioning how hard my arrows were hitting the targets. I 16 year old compound shooter behind me asked what I was shooting. I explained. I saw a look in his eye and offered to let him shoot one out of his 70 single cam Bear compound. I told him to ain one inch high. It was a wild boar target of a brand I had never seen before. It was a full 14 inches thick in the kill area. The tip of the point was sticking out the opposite side. He said he could tell it was noticably slower. I showed him the penetration and told speed wasn't the most important part of the equation.I may have made a convert.

[ArrowAtomik]

I can atest to the accuracy that can be obtained with trad arrows/bh's.  I still dabble just a little in compounds (mostly for the sake of an urban hunting program), but have long had a "traditional" arrow/BH setup even before switching to a longbow this year.  I shoot heavy, extreme FOC, helical feathers, from a 60lb Hoyt Protec.  When tuned, I wouldn't dare shoot three snuffers or stingers at the same dot from 50 yards.  

It is amazing the number of serious compounders that constantly struggle with poor groups and lost deer because of their light 300 fps mech-blade setup that is tuned with the bow and not the arrow.  

I think both target and hunting compounders have so much they could learn from their trad brethren!

[draco]

I think your friends problem of bad hits was probably the sound of his bow as well as the speed of it. Even the ones that their owners think is quiet seem noisy to me,and its such an unnatural noise as well. The deer starts to move after hearing a loud,to it,noise,but the bow shoots too fast for it to get completely out of the way.
On a lease I had several years ago with 5 compound shooters ther was a rash of bad hits. I filled 4 tags shooting a 70# recurve with four shots and no bad hits and short recoveries. We could`nt understand how bows shooting over 100 fps faster by shooters that all attained better accuracy than me could get so many bad hits. The noise combined with the speed was the only reason we could come up with. They went on a campaign of quietening experiments with some degree of success and it seemed to help dramatically. Besides your arrow help you might want to tell him to quiten things up as much as possible. Good luck; Bob

[Precurve]

I have 3 compound shooting friends that all have basically the same setup: 65-70# compounds with total shaft/broadhead weight around 350, all rigs shooting around 300fps.  Two of them shoot expandable broadheads.  All of them told me of arrowed and lost trophy class bucks this year even though they all reported what they thought were decent hits.  The shots were all out of tree stands at close range, so the downward angle must have been fairly steep.  None of the arrows had decent penetration, with none of the broadheads exiting the offside of the animal.  All 3 bucks were lost because of a poor blood trail.

I tried to talk about this same thing two years ago after another friend returned from an expensive trophy elk hunt on an Indian reservation in New Mexico.  I remember he was shooting a shaft/broadhead combination of about 350 grains, but am less certain of the bow poundage, although I know it was at least 65lbs.  He one lunged three Pope and Young trophy class elk with what he claimed were perfect broadside hits.  None of the shafts penetrated more than a few inches.  I was called a liar then, and multiple people called for the post to be pulled.  Watch the arrow penetration achieved by compound shooters on the Outdoor Channel hunting shows.  Even with hits behind the front shoulder penetration is marginal with most of the arrow waving around as the deer runs away.  The exception to this is the Primos group which almost always seems to get pass throughs on their hits.

I think the archery manufacturers' are doing a terrible injustice to the sport by overpromoting the speed of their equipment at the expense of noise and penetration characteristics.  Mechanical expanding broadheads should be banned.  Quiet kills, noise wounds.

[Jacko]

John Schultz once wrote  " most fishing lures are designed to catch fishermen not fish " exactly the case with mechanical broadheads . I get a bit exited about how marketing hype takes presidence over efficency in relation to hunting arrow setups . Just plain immoral !

There's no doubt of the validity of Eds research or the thousands of years that man hunted with  high FOC , high mass weight arrows . Always look to the past to answer todays problems . regards Jacko

[Dr. Ed Ashby]

Carlos,

Glad you mentioned the direction of broadhead mounting. I meant to mention that too. On Wesley's BH, we paid no attention at all to the BH Blade orientation. Also, the penetration was generally completely out the back side on a nearly new Block target (20" thick), so the BH's were unscrewed after each shot, to withdraw the shafts, and no effort was made to place each back onto the same shaft. In fact, I noted that Wesley often changing which shaft they were on. I let that pass, just to see what would happen to the accuracy, and it had no effect at all.

Robert, I think you are absolutely correct. I'll give up LOTS of speed for bow quiteness. I also consider the reduction in bow noise one more great advantage of heavier arrows. The heavier arrows certainly made a noticable difference in the sound level of each of Wesley's bows, despite the fact that Wesley had already taken about every measure possible to reduce the noise level of these bows. I will say that, with his light arrows, his bows were already considerably quiter than most compounds I hear in use. One of the bows is now as quite as most well-silenced trad bows. The other two are slightly noiser. I think he'll find that a help.

CJ, you'll find a photo of the BH from Wesley's failed spine shot shown in one of the Updates that came out last year (from the 2005 testing). The Muzzy BH bent badly, and the shaft was broken by the angular shot's impact. Total penetration, from skin level, was 3". The BH tip stuck into a vertebra, but failed to reach the spinal cord. In testing, I've literally had some 300 fps+ arrows (at over 90 ft. lbs. of IMPACT KE) bounce off buffalo ribs, with the arrows bouncing completely back out of the animal. At the relative low levels any bow is capable, neither speed not KE equates to penetration capability. That depends the structural integrity of the arrow system and the impulse of force during penetration.

Ed

[Tom Leemans]

Just goes to show that one BH being advertised as "more accurate" than another is a bunch of hooey. It needs only to be mounted properly to a well tuned arrow.

[cajunbowhntr]

The exception to this is the Primos group which almost always seems to get pass throughs on their hits

That's because they are all "old school" hard core bowhunters who use heavier arrows and cut on contact or quality chisel point heads,no mechanicals.


CB

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

I agree with "killinstuff" about the spine hit. If he couldn't drop a deer with a spine hit and a Muzzy going 300 fps, I'd bet a week's pay it had nothing to do with his FOC.

 

Wesley's promised an article for GON (you Georgia folks will know that one), and possible some other publications, sometime after he's downed a few animals with it - and, since he's seen what the setup does in testing, he plans to aim all his shots at shoulder bones!

Ed

He plans to aim all his shots at shoulder bones? Good grief.  

[Gene Roberts]

Nice Doc.