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Author Topic: Dr. Ed, ?????????  (Read 455 times)

Offline leatherneck

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Dr. Ed, ?????????
« on: January 05, 2008, 09:54:00 AM »
Ok, here goes. This is for Dr. Ed but others may chime in if you wish. I'm experimenting with this FOC thing and so far have had great results. I shoot a Morrison Cheyenne recurve 55@27 with a 28.5"(from the valley) Gold Tip Trad. I have bare shafted these shaftsm with good results. I shoot a 125gr. snuffer with a 125 gr. steel adapter.Also the insert is the alum. This set up ended up being a 560gr arrow. So I tried to add more so I added the 50gr. brass insert (35 more grains than the alum) Which gave me a 602 gr. arrow(this arrow has an 11gr. wrap on it) I didn't notice it until I went past 20 yards but the heavier arrow was getting some tail whip to it. The other flies true . Could I be trying to stretch it a bit with 300gr. up front? Would the lighter arrow be more than enough with 250 FOC? Any advice would be appreciated.....Mike
P.S. I shot a buck with a 550 arrow this year with 160 up front and was not pleased with my penetration is why I'm doing this.
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Offline leatherneck

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2008, 10:01:00 AM »
I have to run to town so I'll be back in a couple hours. Didn't want anyone to think I asked a question and ignored you all.....Mike
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

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Offline robtattoo

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2008, 10:04:00 AM »
You'll be getting the wonky flight, I would imagine, because by adding an extra 35gn to yur front weight, you'll have weakened the spine. If you can afford to do it, try shortening the shft by 1/4" or so until the flight comes back to how it should be.
I couldn't comment on why the 550gn didn't penetrate as well as you'd hoped. Far, far too many variables.
Just out of interest, which GT Trad are you shooting? 35/55?
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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2008, 11:32:00 AM »
Mike, I'd say that Robert has the answer, spot-on. Any time you add weight to the shaft (anywhere) you alter the dynamic spine that particular shaft will show from a given bow; and that, in turn, alters the quality of flight.

When developing my extreme FOC arrows, I start with a pre-determined point weight setup I want to use (tip, adaptor, insert, and IF, if I'm using one). This is then mounted on a full length bare shaft. I progressively shorten the shaft (cutting from the shaft's rear, usually shortening by 5mm increments each time) until I have the shaft's dynamic spine correct for that point weight.

In other words, I don't start out to reach a pre-conceived shaft length; I'm seeking-out whatever shaft length is required to gives the correct degree of flex (dynamic spine) for that point-weight from that particular bow to achieve the best possible bare shaft flight.

If I can't get the dynamic spine stiff enough by the time I reach my minimum usable shaft length, then I start all over, using the next stiffest static spine shaft.

I begin the tuning at close range; 10 meters or so; and shorten the shaft until I have shots showing very slight weak-spine. Then I move back to 20 meters, again shortening the shaft by tiny increments until only a very slight weak spine shows. Then back to 30, and then 40 meters, repeating the process at each distance. I try to leave a VERY SLIGHT DEGREE (only an inch or two) of weak-spine bare shaft impact at 40 meters. Adding fletching has a slight spine-stiffening effect.

During this bare-shafting process, I'm not concerned with the direction the nock shows after impact; though I do initially 'rough-in' the nocking point to remove any marked up-down knock kick. I find it helpful to use a vertical 'wand', or strip of tape as my tuning target - and I align it 'true vertical' using a plumb-bob.

Basically, I'm only concerned with the left-right POINT OF IMPACT; and I do the shooting with my bow in a vertical position, not the canted position I normally shoot. I judge point of impact based on the group-center of a number of shots at each range. Especailly as you near the correct spine/shaft length, don't make the shaft-shortening cut until you are ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that the dynamic spine is still showing weak. You want to avoid crossing over to strong-spine.

Next stage is to fine-tune the nocking point to eliminate any up-down kick. I do this at close range, and double check it further back. Then I compare the bare-shaft IMPACT against a matching fletched shaft (with field point). Generally the points of impact match perfectly on the first try. If there is any impact disparity, normally only a slight bit of nock-point tuining is required to remove it. As a final step, I check a fletched shaft with a BH; against both the fletched field point and a bare shaft. I do this at 10, 20, 30 and 40 meters.

The alternate technique; using a fixed or pre-determined shaft length; requires you to tune the shaft's dynamic spine by altering the amount of weight at the arrow's front (and elsewhere along the shaft too). This method limits point setup weight to whatever it takes to balance the spine correctly to the bow.

The technique becomes a bit more complex if you're working with bows that can be adjusted to beyond center-shot and with 'forgiving' arrow rest, but can be used. Just keep in mind that changing the rest-tension, elevation or in-out alignment (changing the degree of center-shot) can drastically change the shaft dynamic-spine required.

During all tuning, NEVER change more than one single item before re-testing the setup. That's the only way to see what that change did to the arrow's flight. Change two, and you can't know which change caused what.

Hope that helps,

Ed

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2008, 01:39:00 PM »
WOW! Thanks guys, that's alot of good info. I think since I already had my shafts bareshafted I'll try the easy route first and cut the shaft down a 1/4 at a time. I can cut about 1/2 to 5/8 if needed. If that don't work then I'll start from square one with a full length shaft. So apparently you don't think the 300gr. set up is extreme? Thanks to both of you.

Mike
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Offline leatherneck

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2008, 01:42:00 PM »
Rob, I'm shooting the 55 / 70 Trads.
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

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Offline leatherneck

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2008, 02:46:00 PM »
That was easy. I took a 1/4" off and BAM, bare shaft, field point fletched, and BH flew true to each other. I shot out to 30 yards and everything looked good. I'll get longbowben over later to watch and see if I may need a touch more off for I can't watch my arrow and shoot. I just noticed it before because it was so extreme. Thanks again guys. I still have until the end of Jan. to bowhunt and one doe tag left to try this set-up out. I'll keep you posted.

Dr. Ed, if you ever make it to Ohio, look me up. I'd love to sit and talk with you about your studies.
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

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Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2008, 02:54:00 PM »
Mike, I'll try to remember to do that, whenever I'm up that way next.

Ed

Offline hormoan

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2008, 03:39:00 PM »
Oh, Ed your Christmas wish( Evidently denied)!! Hope you saved that in a Word file under FOC Q&A    :D    

              Hormoan at your service    :thumbsup:

Offline Dr. Ed Ashby

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2008, 03:53:00 PM »
Brent,

When I first I saw this, I said  :eek:    :scared:    :eek:

Then    :readit:    "[dntthnk]"  

but finally decided "What the heck, it's a new year"   :)  

Ed

Offline vermonster13

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2008, 03:59:00 PM »
Back home Ed?
TGMM Family of the Bow
For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.

Offline Bjorn

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2008, 04:17:00 PM »
So when I increase point weight I can use a stiffer shaft. I measured and balanced a POC arrow 70-75# and 470 grains- 29.75 inch shaft with no point. Balanced at 14 inches with nock and fletching. Added 125 weight and balance point moved forward 3.4 inches. Added 65 grains and moved forward another 1.1 inches. Added 125 grains and moved forward 1.6 inches for a total of 6.1 inches or 20.4 FOC. With wood I can't really get there. 4.5 inch increase is doable, giving me 13.3 FOC using a 190 Grizzly. And that means my shaft needs to be 80-85, and 13.3 is not a lot anyway. (It is raining cats and dogs today so I can't check that out to be sure) But that aside, to hit an FOC of 20 with wood I would need a 315 grain head and 100# shaft.
Anybody want to chime in?

Offline p1choco

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2008, 04:03:00 AM »
Bjorn, from my unprofessional experience, you are on the right track.  I don't how stiff a shaft or how much weight you would need, but the more extreme you go means adding more weight, which in turn weakens spine.  So...you need a stronger spine for the extra weight.  The FOC length to balance point chart shows that a FOC of 19.9% can be attained when a 30.75" arrow measured from to tip to balance point equals 9.25".  I'm adding an inch for the tip installed.  You can probably get a rough estimate for the weight needed in front and experiment with spine until you get good flight.  The good doctor says it's much easier to get great Extreme FOC flight with carbon when compared to aluminum shafts.  I imagine that would be the same case for wood too.
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Offline JBiorn

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2008, 04:12:00 AM »
Leatherneck-----you need kneepads!

Offline leatherneck

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2008, 08:27:00 PM »
Jeff, only a Navy man would know about knee pads! I sent you an email.
“I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can’t accept not trying"

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Offline Bjorn

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2008, 02:21:00 PM »
LOL! You guys are cracking me up!

Offline beachbowhunter

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2008, 02:27:00 PM »
Bjorn, I've seen that people have more trouble front loading wood arrows with good success. For some reason it seems to work better on carbons.
Ishi was a Californian                   :cool:

Offline Bjorn

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Re: Dr. Ed, ?????????
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2008, 02:45:00 PM »
Hey Beachbow! We are hunting Chopper's March 7-you plan to go back there? That Avatar of yours is still the most striking yet!

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