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Author Topic: How much does cut past center matter?  (Read 1052 times)

Offline CNCrash

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How much does cut past center matter?
« on: January 10, 2008, 02:16:00 AM »
I have been drooling over the Toelke Whip for quite some time now.  I know that the shelf is cut to center to help with spine forgiveness.  There are some other bows out there that are cut past center, Striker Stinger is 1/16 past center and the ACS-CX is 3/16 past center, for example.  Just a little help on how much this effects arrow flight and should I make a decision based on center cut?

Offline gilf

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2008, 04:37:00 AM »
As you say it is all about spine forgiveness, with 3/16 past center for example archers paradox is almost non-existent, this allows you a much larger range of spine options. For example on my 53# ACS I'm using 75-80 spine (looking at trying higher) which my other 50# bows are shooting around 55-60 spine.

The reason some are cut past and others not is as far as I know due to the bow construction, cutting to or past center could effect the structural integrity of the bow.

I suppose only you can decide if it should effect bow choice, personally I wouldn't consider it anything other than nice to have.

Offline AkDan

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2008, 05:08:00 AM »
I also wouldnt let this affect your purchase.

But I would like to see more bows cut to or past center so you can build them out appropriately.   Maybe I like to tinker more then I should.  Some longbow shelves are so small that only thin leather for a side plate will work, which means pressure points wont fit.  Which means fine tuning may or may not happen as much as I'd like.  The nice thing I've found a bow that doesnt need them!  

Basically the farther the center of the shaft is from the center of string travel or the bow, the more critical your spine is going to end up and the better your form is going to have to be.   The closer to center it is, the more you can get away with in errors on both ends.

Offline aromakr

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2008, 11:59:00 AM »
Akdan:
I have to disagree with you in regard to the depth of shelf effecting how good your shooting form needs to be. Poor form will be reflected regardless of the way the bow is constructed. It will however effect spine need. less than center bows have a narrower spine range than bows cut past center. Something a lot of people don't take into account is very small diameter shafts used in bows cut past center. In this situation the center of the shaft can be past center of the bow limb, thats not good. In that case the strike plate should be moved out until the center of the shaft is to the center of the limb.
Bob
Man must "believe" in something!  I "believe" I will go hunting-----

Offline buckeye_hunter

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2008, 12:38:00 PM »
It would be great if there was a booth at the various expos that could help you tune your arrow to your specific bow.  I know I would stand in line to get ideas.  It sure would help a lot of guys to understand their setup regardless of how their shelf is cut.

-Charlie

Offline Quill Flinger

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2008, 01:35:00 PM »
I have a theory,..laffs.

When you release a string with fingers, it "slides" slightly towards your face like. Then it attempts to correct itself back towards center. This is part of "archer's paradox", & how old bows that were not cut anywhere near center achieved proper arrow flight with tuning.

I have not yet found any significant difference in tuning bows cut to, past, or not to center. However, bows cut past center seem to favour a stiffer spine, IMO.

It is not a factor in my consideration of a bow. So go & feast upon the buffet of bows available!!!
<~ TGMM Family of the Bow ~<<<

Offline James Wrenn

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 01:53:00 PM »
I like them cut past center when possible.It just gives me more room to work and more shafts available to use.Once you find the right spine even a bow with no cutout will shoot fine.Having them cut deep just cuts down on finding that perfect arrow because you have more room to tune for the arrows you have.
....Quality deer management means shooting them before they get tough....

Offline BRITTMAN

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2008, 04:38:00 PM »
Im with James , I like a bow cut to center or past . It just makes the job of finding the right arrow easier and I need all the help I can get .


Mike
" Live long and prosper "

Offline Shawn Leonard

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2008, 06:37:00 PM »
I really do not think it makes much of a difference as far as tuning. i very seldom have trouble tuning any bow I have owned, yes bows cut 3/16th. past center will shoot a wider range of spines but I do not find it that hard to get close from th eget go on most bows I have tried just from experience. I am with arromaker(Bob) on this one! Shawn
Shawn

Offline John Havard

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2008, 08:16:00 PM »
Bob is right - how much a bow is cut past center doesn't mean your shooting form has to be any better.  What it DOES mean, however, is that bows cut 3/16ths past center will shoot a much larger range of spined arrows very well with minimum tuning.  

Bows that are not cut to center or just to center require careful matching of the archer, the arrow (length, diameter, spine, point weight, draw weight, etc) and will therefore be much more selective about what arrows fly well (for any particular archer and that particular bow).  Bows that are well cut past center (like 3/16ths) are that way for a reason - it's easier to find arrows that will fly well.  Plus, if you have arrows that are flying weak and you don't want to reduce the point weight (again, like Bob said) you can build out the strike plate to force the arrow to paradox just a bit more.  

If the riser/grip is strong enough to be cut 3/16ths past center and if the archer isn't going to be using the bow in some sort of competition that mandates how center-shot a bow can be, there are no good reasons not to cut it there.

Offline AkDan

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Re: How much does cut past center matter?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2008, 10:59:00 PM »
Sorry guys I would have to respectfully disagree here.   As with a bow that is say an ELB style, which is signifacantly short of center....form is going to affect your arrow flight more then on a center shot recurve.   Obviously stating that we have taken the time to find the right arrows for the bow which we know to be the most important part of our game.

Think of it this way.  A bow that is at rest with the center of the shaft centered through the bow.  With a good form, you're going to have little to no torque, good release, no movement.   Which means your arrow is horizontally affected less as there is no bow to wrap around or deflect off of due to human error alone from shot to shot.   It's one of the reasons people can and regularly do shoot recurves well making a host of errors be it form and or spine or a combination of both.  

All things being equal, having the proper spine out of a non center shot longbow, the farther it is off center the more those horizontal errors are going to affect it.   Its simple physics...the more bend the arrow has to go through, and the more bend the arrow is put into, the more inconsistent your arrow flight and over all accuracy is going to be.  The less the arrow has to work around the bow, even with a greater then normal horizontal screw up will show less down range inconsistencies.  The best we can hope for is to do it the same way every time though that eludes many of us at some point through our careers as traditional bowhunters or primitive bowhunters.

This can go one step farther, as it was noted a long time ago. I happened to find this in "the bowmans handbook" (and no it's not for sale).  The chapter is on "design and construction fo an arrow vibration frequency meter.  The jist of it?  Like spined shafts bending disemilarly.  This is taking things to a level we need not go to....yet to say it doesnt affect accuracy?  YOu can see similar concepts and theorys state by most of our greats in the past.   Yet very few take it to this level.

As for the shelf itself.

I'd rather have to build a plate out, then have no shelf as on my old Doug Knight excaliber.  IT does shoot well, actually extremely well.  And when I screw it up, it screws up extremely well too  :) .   Yet it has very very little there for a shelf and for the longest time was a problem with getting feathers gouging into the bowhand and fine tuning that bow.  There is no reason a bow that requires a shelf measurement cannot be cut past and built back out to achieve it.  Why go through the trouble?   I've greatly noticed a difference probably from my lack of form and shooting flaws without the pressure points as I do with them.   Both Asbell and Feguson go into discussiong this in both there books.  As does some older perodicals referencing Fred Bear.  If you're good enough you probably dont need it.....atleast for me I do!

There is a reason many of us present and those of our past spend so much time practicing form!!!  There is a reason Howard could shoot many different spined shafts out of his bow and still achieve great success down range....  Flawless form, he knew as many do and have, it's importance.

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