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Author Topic: Not what some want to hear about carbons  (Read 806 times)

Offline insttech1

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2008, 08:43:00 PM »
Jindy,
Take two identical shafts and put them on a spin tester, with broadheads.

You can see the "wobble" of the needle points of broadhead tips at these dimensions.

Remember--these are "magnified" errors along with distance of the shaft, with the magnification never being symmetrical, because the error is not always in the exact same spot on the shaft (hence the tolerance value)...
"When you catch Hell--DROP IT!!  When you're going thru Hell--DON'T STOP!!"

Offline insttech1

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2008, 08:47:00 PM »
And no, this thread isn't about "bad carbons" in general, but I'd say the original poster has some valid complaints if his shafts are guaranteed to be within a certain spec'.

For example, the tolerances he's reporting would be "acceptable" for bottom-barrel or "seconds" from major manufacturers, where new carbon shafts guaranteeing straightness of .003" are now going for $80 to $140 a dozen.

For about a $100 a dozen, or even $80 for that matter, I'd be peeved if I measured mine and they were that far off, whether I can feel it, see it, outshoot it, or not...

Now if the shafts are marked at +/- .010, then you got what you paid for...and they'd probably be used (by me anyway) for target practice or rabbits/squirrels where they're more apt to be lost...

See Ya,
Marc
"When you catch Hell--DROP IT!!  When you're going thru Hell--DON'T STOP!!"

Offline Labs4me

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2008, 09:04:00 PM »
AGAIN, as a practical matter it really doesn't matter, especially to an average Joe, close range shooter such as myself. I took the time to speak directly with a manufacturing rep and he gave me a probable explanation for the wobble and weight variance that I did in fact experience. I do NOT wish to turn this into a carbon bashing thread. If you are pleased with your carbons that's all that should matter to you.
"You must not only aim right, but draw the bow with all your might." - Henry David Thoreau (Before the advent of compound bows with 85% letoff)

Offline Widowbender

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2008, 10:17:00 PM »
Boy this can be a "sticky wicket". I'm still new to the trad world, but I'm not new to archery. I used to shoot alot of tournament archery. I've seen guys do every kind of testing possible. I personally think that shaft runout is one of the most over rated factors to good arrow flight. I remember when the wrapped carbon arrows first came out. I had been shooting X7 2512 "Line Cutters" is what we called 'em.  Most guys shot some type of large diameter alum. in those days. Well my buddy who owns a bow shop talked me into trying these "new" carbons that just came out. We had been hearing about them for months. So I fixed up a dozen of them to try.My accuracy immediately improved. I used to practices every day after work. I had a whole regimen (blind bale, distance judging, 3D and long distance shooting). On my long distance days I shot a target bag with an index card in the middle from 85 yards. With these arrows I could (on days when it wasn't windy) consistently put 4 out of 5 arrows in the card. So I started taking them to tournaments. The first one was an indoor 3d shoot we used to have on thursday nights. I took first place and won $100, enough to pay for my arrows. One of the guys before the shoot started asked me about the arrows . He said he had bought some and checked the runout and they were so bad he took them back for a refund. I told him that I hadn't checked mine but they shot great. Well the next day I had to find out so I had a friend check them. The runout
was up to .014. But I kept shooting them, kept winning shoots with them. When hunting season rolled around I refletched them, put broadheads on 'em and killed deer with em'. I still have 8 out of the original 12. I always had numbers on my arrows and if I had one that didn't group with the rest I just rotated the nock a little bit at a time until they came in to the group. I never shot a carbon arrow that couldn't be tuned this way.    
I'm not knocking anybody that's into the whole straightness, runout, arrow spinning deal, because
I believe that what ever you have confidence in is what you should do. Its just that my experience has shown me that I'm better off practicing my shooting than spinning arrows. Oh yeah, those "new" carbon arrows were Gold Tip 5575. I hear they got much straighter but I don't know, I quit checking them a long time ago.

David
David

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Chatham County Chapter NWTF
Chapel Hill Friends of NRA

Offline Dirty Bill

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2008, 11:07:00 PM »
Wood arras don't know they're crooked...   :rolleyes:    :campfire:

Offline longbowben

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2008, 11:26:00 PM »
I was only shooting wood UNTIL i shoot carbons.And i shoot wood for 15 years.Im not going back.Carbons are superior.
54" Hoots 57@28
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Offline jindydiver

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2008, 12:11:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by insttech1:
Jindy,
Take two identical shafts and put them on a spin tester, with broadheads.

You can see the "wobble" of the needle points of broadhead tips at these dimensions.

Remember--these are "magnified" errors along with distance of the shaft, with the magnification never being symmetrical, because the error is not always in the exact same spot on the shaft (hence the tolerance value)...
How does this really matter?
When an arrow goes through paradox it is bent a whole lot more than any .010 runnout, and I am sure the head has ample opportunity to plane then, would the shaft adding .010 extra (what angle could it make to the head, I don't know) make any difference to the arrows flight?
.

Mick

Offline NDTerminator

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2008, 07:03:00 AM »
I don't know which carbons you got, but there have been some rumors about inconsistent quality control with the ones that have the initials GT.

I primarily use alums with my recurves but also shoot CX carbons and have been very satisfied with them. They are at least as accurate as alums but are far more durable.

I just like the alums because they are easier to work on and easier to find when they go under grass...
"As Trad as I wanna be"

"It's all just archery, and all archery is good"

Offline Earl E. Nov...mber

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2008, 07:38:00 AM »
A shaft that has .010 run out (TIR) is still straight within .005.   Run out will measure above and below center.. Typically if it .010 TIR, no part of it is over .005 further or closer from center than the norm. I've shot Aluminums for 30 years, I have bent and straightened more than a few.. If the center of the shaft spins true to the ends, (In other words an "S" bend)It will shoot with the rest of them, at least within my abilities.
Many have died for my freedom.
One has died for my soul.

Offline Labs4me

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2008, 07:44:00 AM »
Most of my friends and acquaintances who hunt shoot compound bows. To my knowledge, none have ever taken the time to learn how to tune an arrow. Most have never even learned (or care to learn) how to fletch an arrow. They simply buy them prefletched and have them cut to size and the point insert installed. I suppose this why when you visit a large archery shop like Cabelas, Bass Pro Shop, etc. - there is always an entire wall of prefletched arrows available and often, just a token supply of shafting material and arrow building supplies.

When my compound shooting friends want their BOW tuned or the string replaced, or the cam adjusted, or a cable tightened, or the cushion-plunger upgraded, they just take it to a local archery pro shop, lay down their money, and pick their bow up a few days later.  Most know nothing about brace height, kinetic energy, momentum or FOC. Most have never even heard of Dr. Ed and could care less about his landmark tests on penetration. For that matter, most have never even heard of Saxton, Pope, Ishi, St. Charles, Asbell, et al. Most find it AMUSING that I insist on shooting "such heavy arrows" and "waste my time" buying broadheads that I have to sharpen myself. EVERY ONE of my friends who shoots a compound can out shoot me using their un-tuned, prefletched, arrows.  So I can say with absolute certainty that they aren't too concerned about arrow spinners, arrow wobble and other such "trivial" matters. If their arrow hits 4 inches off at forty yards, this is simply compensated for with a quick adjustment to the forty yard pin while still out on the 3-D course.

Arrow wobble matters to ME because I find the arrow tuning process challenging and time consuming enough using arrows that spin true to begin with. Arrow wobble also matters to me because I insist that my broadheads are mounted PERFECTLY true. I check for broadhead wobble two ways. I vertically spin my broadhead tipped arrows on a hard flat surface looking for wobble. I also check for wobble by placing my arrow on a horizontal spin tester and paying close attention to the tip of the broadhead as I rotate the arrow.  I always begin my arrow tuning/building process by spin checking my arrows.  I’ll take an arrow that spins true and use that arrow to experiment with while bare shaft tuning.  The other arrows that spin true are used as practice/hunting arrows. Those that do not spin true are used for stumping and small game hunting.

This is WHY arrow wobble matters to me. The fact that compound bow shooters can out shoot me with un-tuned, prefletched, store bought arrows does not lessen my expectation that my high end carbon arrow shafts should spin true right out of the box (as my XX78 always do) and also meet or exceed the other specifications that they are marketed to have.
"You must not only aim right, but draw the bow with all your might." - Henry David Thoreau (Before the advent of compound bows with 85% letoff)

Offline Otto

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2008, 08:01:00 AM »
IMHO, arrow straightness is highly over rated.  Unless an arrow is bent out at the tip when it contancts the riser at full draw, it doesn't mean a whole lot.  Yeah, broadheads need to spin true but past that, I can't see getting all whacked out about 10-15 thousandths worth of runout.

Guys on this board kill deer with obsidian heads and reed shaft arrows.  Ya think those shafts are straighter and more consistant than carbons??
Otto

Offline trapper1

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2008, 08:30:00 AM »
Just a thought, some of the aluminum inserts have a slightly sloppy fit to them, enough so that you would not effectively be able to get a true measurement of "spin" to them, the insert should be a press fit to ensure proper alignment.

With that said, I'm pretty sure I know which arrows you are shooting and they are not that great, and the consistency of those particular arrows can be an issue, I've seen it before. However their upper end arrows are the ticket. I agree that you should get what is advertised and expect what is advertised. As for the wood versus carbon issue, shoot what you want, what you believe in and what shoots right for you,....it's an argument that can't be won.

enjoy,
Trapper
Just remember, if you're gonna be stupid ....you gotta be tough...

Offline Labs4me

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2008, 08:31:00 AM »
Otto,

Agreed. Some have killed animals with stone points and reed shafts. I suppose a few have even killed deer with spears, Bowie knives and dead-falls.

I appreciate your opinion.
"You must not only aim right, but draw the bow with all your might." - Henry David Thoreau (Before the advent of compound bows with 85% letoff)

Offline Dirty Bill

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Re: Not what some want to hear about carbons
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2008, 02:47:00 PM »
I know a guy that killed a deer with a rock.Now that's traditional.   :goldtooth:

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