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Author Topic: western hunting in desperate straights  (Read 2399 times)

Offline Roadkill

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western hunting in desperate straights
« on: September 06, 2006, 10:43:00 PM »
First, the west is burning.  Several HUNDRED square miles have burned here.  Nevada isn't alone as the fires have ravaged many prime areas and totally ruined delicate wintering forage in al the western states.  It is so bad here that our DOW has started a special antelope hunt and will soon announce a special deer season to cull animals which will have no winter range.
Second, and more importantly, the congress will take up a horse for food ban this week.  The emotional issue will be presented as the poor wild horses shouldn't be used for food.  BLM will not take a stand but privately they will say the herds are mismanaged by legislation, and this will put more unadoptable horses on the public dole.  Somebody pays to feed these things and it isn't cheap, taxpayer friends. The new law will prevent unadoptable and horses over 10 from the "house".  They now can be sent tot he house after a year in private ownership. If you have ever staked out a water hole out here and watched a stallion run off all the other horses and the deer, antelope and cattle, you'll understand how important it is to balance these herds.

So if you ever want a chance at a really big mulie, call your congress folks and tell them some horses should be sent to the house.  if you don't, the mulie will disappear before you get your shot!
Cast a long shadow-you may provide shade to someone who needs it.  Semper Fi

Offline Roughcountry

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2006, 11:11:00 PM »
Couldn't agree more.

Offline tamure

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2006, 11:16:00 AM »
Last I heard, NDOW wasn't going to have a special deer hunt because the deer pop is already so low.   :(   My uncle got an antelope tag, though.

The wild horse thing really drives me crazy. It really burns me that they got on the state quarter, narrowly beating out the state animal, the Bighorn sheep. Something having to do with a last-minute voting drive of school children. Hmm.... indoctrinate them while they're young.

I don't want them all wiped out, but they need to have numbers reduced substantially. They are going to suffer even more from the wild fires because they can't eat as diverse of foods as the deer.

People who push for legislation like this have no idea of the reality of life for these critters. I wonder if they've ever even seen one. They are certainly not a noble symbol of the wild west. Most are mangy and bony and lame. The exception is the small herd that lives practically in town, and are well fed on a watered park. People take pictures of them and think that this is how all of them live.

Anyway, /rant off. What we need is a public education campaign with public access to rangeland data studies showing the true environmental impact caused by the horses, as well as the impact on the horses because of reduced range due to fire, drought, overpopulation, etc. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the university library.   :(
Directions: Hike, camp, hunt, fish, wash, rinse, repeat.

Offline vermonster13

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2006, 11:44:00 AM »
The cuteness factor. The state and federal governments will spend millions of dollars to cotrol or eradicate nonnative species that are harmful to the environment, but are trumped by the cute cuddly images of certain species, an image propigated by HSUS and others.

Education and the truth need to be spread, but even then they'll only do so much.
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Offline tamure

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2006, 01:42:00 PM »
That's unfortunately very true.

I can't remember who to attribute this quote to:

"The ultimate defense against human predation that an animal can have is... cuteness."

Came up in the debate on the seal hunt.

LOL, maybe I can use PETA's own tactic: put up bill boards of skeletal horses, or pictures of scenes like my coworker saw the other day: a horse with one front leg hanging only by a few tendons, after apparently being hit by a car. No one cares about humans, but there's also the picture of the car with the windshield completely gone, blood everywhere, the driver in the hospital, lucky to live, after hitting the stallion of the local band of horses I referenced above. No wait, then they'd want to ban cars.

Ok, I'm going to stop now because I'm just getting worked up and spewing.
Directions: Hike, camp, hunt, fish, wash, rinse, repeat.

Offline Roadkill

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2006, 07:52:00 PM »
Just send a note to the senators and congressmen-I won't vote for you if you vote for this legislation"  if just one more says NO than the ones that say yes, its done.  Any vote can be bought.
Get Todd involved-he shoes horses for a living, been on a horse all his life and he'll tell you they are mismangaged.
Cast a long shadow-you may provide shade to someone who needs it.  Semper Fi

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2006, 03:05:00 AM »
I have shoed thousands of horses; and worked with wild horse organizations.
 There are many horses (and donkeys too); that can find great homes; and be just as good a horse as any- afterall wild horses don't know that they are not to be caught and taught to ride and pack like all horses.
 But there are horses that just cannot be worked with. Oh yes there are people that might have a chance; but the numbers of those people are way too small.
 Management of horses is in its infancy. We did not like roping up horses with truck tires attached until they got exhausted and stopped; to be taken to slaughter houses.
 I don't think it would be good for our image (hunters in general) to be shooting wild horses; I don't see that: as the solution.
 I dont see that as a solution for wild donkeys either.
 Something has to be done however; or like with any animal they all will suffer.
  Keep in mind that there is another part of this issue. While roundups of wild horses to be taken to slaughter might be nessesary- there are other things happening.
 Several years ago- when the French started liking horse meat- the meat value of the horses was high enough that it exceeded the market value- as the real thing about having horses; is not buying them: but the upkeep of them.
 So; guys in cowboy hats would drive the Boise Idaho valley- and approach horse owners saying that they were 'outfitters' or 'guides'; and that they needed 'cheap trained horses' for riding and packing in their businesses.
 They promised good homes; excercise and care of the horses; and they got them dirt cheap.
 But it was all a lie; they sold over 2000 horses to France for meat.
  When you had a pet horse; and were trying to make a poor sad cowboy happy; and trying to help with the sale of your horse for riding and a good life: well it just upset a lot of folks!
 So now we have Wille Nelson; and other famous folks trying to keep that from happening again; and in so they are interfering with the control of wild horses.
 Please don't mix the two separate issues up- the anti-horse eating crowd has already done that.
 If horses and donkeys are to be controlled - then an effort to make this something less than the 'California gold rush situation': should be sought out and found!
 This is just not a for/against issue. Its complex; and not sorting it can; and will: keep people mad on both sides.
 As hunters- that means rifle or whatever- we should not clap our hands in delight: over the deaths of animals that COULD have if things were done right - have been saved.
 Nor should we see winning: as the wild horses and donkeys being killed.
 Yes there have to be controls; but this is a situation that can make us look like bloodthirsty fools - even if we are doing everything 'right'.
 'Right' is not a known yet. How horses and donkeys can and should be controlled is not a science: or a sane collection of thoughts.
 So- now its crisis time; but lets keep in mind public perception; and work to do what has to be done; without making us; or the pro-horse people: look like opposites.
 Because we are not. They want healthy horses in the wild; and we do too. Its how that happens- that is the difficult part to accomplish: and still maintain a good public perception.
 If both sides come from emotional and not rationale positions: nothing good will come from this.
  This has all the potential of being a great lesson for both sides.
 Lets not let that chance to learn slip away!!
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline HACKSAW

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2006, 04:45:00 PM »
Brian
Thanks for laying this out. I was not aware of much of this but reading your version makes sense. I have been thinking about taking on some mustangs when they sell them here in Tennessee. I think this has made up my mind for me.
Hacksaw
Horace Worcester
" IN THE SPRING I STRUT "
 " IN THE FALL I RUT "

Offline Traxx

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2006, 03:48:00 AM »
I am the Todd,that Roadkill refered to in his post.Besides the qualifications he already mentioned,i have been employed by the BLM as a farrier,and as a horse wrangler,responsible for the gather,and care for these horses.I was also involved with the adopt a horse program,placeing horses,and the subsequent compliance checks on these same horses,untill the elapsed time and title was granted to these adopters.My Grandfather,was employed by the Feds as a range con,and retired from that posistion after many yrs of service.I come from 5 generations of people who have spent their entire lives on western rangelands and have monitored and recorded their observations through these generations.The Rangelands of the west,are in the worst condition,over the last30 yrs,than they have been in  the last 100 yrs.Ironically,that was about the time that the wild horse Annie laws were inacted,and the care of such horses came under the Juistiction of the Feds,rather than the states.Now as i said,i worked for the feds,and they have management plans,that would benefit the vast multiple land use,but their hands are tied,and their plans,constantly blocked by personal interest groups and their lawsuits.The BLM is damned if they do and damned if they don't.In themeantime,the problem just gets worse,to the point,that drastic measures must be taken.Most of these good intentioned,but truely ignorant protection groups,don't even realize,the damage to these animals that they impose,with their legislation.I would like to see their management plans,if they were all of a sudden were faced with the burden of the care of these horses,and the total expense of this undertakeing.I know it would change,because i have seen it personally,on severall occastions.The Adopt a horse program,has been a complete failure,at best,and the expense is burdened by the taxpayer.If this program,had been a buisness,in the private sector,it would have gone bankrupt,long ago,and probably been brought up on criminal charges as well.The majority of horses gathered,are completely unadoptable by the public,and the majority of horses that are adopted,are by people who are no where near qualified to work with these horse.Most qualified trainers,will not take these horses on,as they take more time to work than is profitable,and if they did,most adopters,are not willing to pay,what would be charged.There are some success stories,but the majority of them do not end up so.These horses,end up  being neglected spending time in isolation of a 20 by 30 pen,not getting the care they need,as no vet or farrier will deal with them.After much deliberation,they end up at a sale somewhere,and often to a slaughter house.Worst case scenario,is the adopter,has a friend or relative,that fancies themselves a horse trainer,cause they watched one of the many "HORSE WHISPERER" video's,and their gonna teach this horse a thing or two.Most times it ends up with physical injury to both,and most definetly mental injury to the horse.After all of this,the end result is the same as said earlier.It takes a good hand,with experience,dealing with these raw wild animals,with a very keen sense of self preservation.I like to see a band of wild horses out there,as much as the next guy,but they need to be managed just like anything else.They are NOT a native species to the western range,and are not the only species dependent on that range.Especially with the depleating of rangeland due to urban srawl fire damage and other issues,that resource is limited,but the horse population is getting bigger,due to missmanagement.Wild horse sanctuaries are overflowing,and a huge expense to the american Taxpayer.It doesn't take a genious to figure out,what needs to be done.Like it or not,it can be a means to an end,that is better to all concerned,includeing a healthier better managed wild horse population.I BASE THESE OPPINIONS NOT ON INFO READ OR OTHERWISE LEARNED THROUGH SECONDHAND INFO
Target archery is seeing how far away you can get and still hit the bull's eye. Bowhunting is seeing how close you can get and never miss your mark.

Offline Ray Hammond

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2006, 09:14:00 AM »
control needs to be sent back to the state level for starters- as this would make it very expensive for these bleeding heart wackos to file suit in every state - as it stands now they file one suit and it gums up the whole works.

Divide- and conquer is the place to start.
“Courageous, untroubled, mocking and violent-that is what Wisdom wants us to be. Wisdom is a woman, and loves only a warrior.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline vermonster13

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2006, 09:18:00 AM »
The problem is politicians and lay people think they should have a say in everything. If management could be left to the science and facts, there would be a lot fewer issues.
TGMM Family of the Bow
For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.

Offline Traxx

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2006, 02:21:00 PM »
Ray,
That would be the best avenue,for all concerned,whether the pony huggers like it or not.Many of them know it as well,but they will not admit it publicly,as that would be admitting they were wrong.With the exception,of some that use this as a political platform,other feds,would like to do just that,and rid themselves of this headache.The hugger groups,own champion,Harry Ried,just last year,turned his back on them and slipped some legislation through quietly,to allow the BLM to handle the situation,as they saw fit.The ARG's found out about it and filed suits,stopping it.Wild horse Annie herself,admitted before her passing,that she had created a monster,that had gotten,way out of hand.There are a couple of small areas in the state,where the horses,are on state land and are managed by the state.They have a much better rate of success than the feds,but they are also not dealing with the same volume.
Vermonster13,
You are exactly right.Unfortuneately,that has been tainted as well.There have been scientific studies and facts of the case done,on numerous occastions.My grandfather,and a nuetral scientist,by the Name of Gus Hormay,from the university of SF,conducted many studies,collected vast amounts of Data,and came to severall very credible conclusions.The HPG's and Anti grazers,would not accept this,as it didn't form with their political agendas.They then hired their own studies done,that always met their agendas.Many of their plans,have been tried through the years in certain management areas.NONE,and i mean NONE of them have worked.This,at the expense of the horses well being.Death,and in many cases,slow,and needless death has occured.Funny thing is,the public rarely hears about that,and they find a way to put the blame,on the BLM.Next time,you talk to one of these protectors of the American Mustang,ask em about the Nellis project,or about the Mare sterilization project,and their results.I bet they form amnesia real quick.
Target archery is seeing how far away you can get and still hit the bull's eye. Bowhunting is seeing how close you can get and never miss your mark.

Offline Roadkill

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2006, 07:04:00 PM »
science and fact make sense to me.  Having somebody that has never seen a wildhorse make laws for us makes as much sense as me telling a lobster fisherman what he needs to do to balance his trade! I only eat lobster, I've never seen one in a lobster trap nor do I know wha tit takes to get one in a trap.
Cast a long shadow-you may provide shade to someone who needs it.  Semper Fi

Offline vermonster13

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2006, 07:28:00 PM »
Similar issues have been plagueing the wolf reintroductions
TGMM Family of the Bow
For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2006, 12:32:00 PM »
Vermonster 13
 there is the solution; take the wolves off our elk herds and put them in with the horses.

2 TRAXX- a farrier? have you ever been kicked?
  :archer:
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

Offline vermonster13

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2006, 12:35:00 PM »
If the ARAs get their way, the wolves and bears will be our replacements, not coexisters. The whole object is to have the wolves control the herds so we aren't needed as far as they are concerned.
TGMM Family of the Bow
For hunting to have a future, we must invest ourselves in future hunters.

Offline painthorse

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2006, 03:25:00 PM »
The problem is that the groups that are stopping wise management have more money than most small countries.
I will agree with what has been said that most of these animals will never be saddle horses.The time and risk it would take to turn one out is not worth it.
My wife and I love to ride out west and have witnessed the damage caused by horses.I can see why the wildlife is hurting but short of an open season on horses I dont see this getting better.
Reagan said "government is not the answer,government is the problem".I think that sums it up pretty well.

Scott

Offline Traxx

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2006, 09:26:00 PM »
Brian,
Goin on 25 yrs,and it would be easier,to tell ya,the parts that aint been kicked.
Target archery is seeing how far away you can get and still hit the bull's eye. Bowhunting is seeing how close you can get and never miss your mark.

Offline Brian Krebs

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Re: western hunting in desperate straights
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2006, 12:33:00 AM »
Vermonster:
 I agree with the replacement of hunters with wolves being a motive.
 I bet though; if we suggested taking horse killing wolves to the overpopulated horse areas; they would scream bloody murder ( no pun intended).
 In fact suggesting that just might make them panic and do the right thing.

2traxx- I have shoed a lot of horses too (trained by Scott Simpson); my big toes have been smashed; my fingers too; and dont ya love it- when the blood appears? The horse owners always ask : "is the horse bleeding?"; and when you say "no- its me." they respond "Thank God!".   :D  
 
 Maybe if we could sic some photographers on the situation the sight of the starving horses would shake some people to reality???  :archer:
THE VOICES HAVEN'T BOTHERED ME SINCE I STARTED POKING THEM WITH A Q-TIP.

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