your thoughts on hunting today?

[Orion]

tradtusker:  To respond to your initial question, yeah, it's happening here as well.  What the documentary you saw is protraying isn't hunting, it's paid for killing.  There's a lot of that going on here as well.  We even have a couple of cable TV channels devoted to it.  The folks doing the documentaries probably don't know any better.  They're more than likely city folks, and their only experience with what is called hunting, they see on TV.  And, in fact, a lot of equipment manufacturers and others in it for the buck, tell them that what they see is actually hunting.  

I'm probably a lot older than you, and I'm certainly saddened by that depiction of hunting.  Due in large part to the image this type of treatment conveys to non hunters, who will ultimately determine the future of hunting at the ballot box in this country, I convinced that real hunting will be substantially curtailed in my lifetime, and hunting for certain species and in certain locations will be abolished within my lifetime.

[BobT]

Tradtusker,
 I agree it's a sad state of affairs, some of the shows that they call hunting might as well be filmed in a slaughter house. I remember one from years ago that aired on one of the major networks I think it was ABC, called "The Guns of Autumn" it was nothing more than blatant anti-hunting propaganda. Shooting obviously tame animals in fenced enclosures. It was a thinly veiled attack on hunters and nothing more.

Scott,
 I don't necessarily support crossbows during archery seasons. With a few exceptions I don't think they should be allowed during archery only seasons. I do think they could be called a traditional weapon since they have been around for so long. Here in Missouri they are only allowed during firearms seasons unless you have a medical exemption, or on a few managed hunts that specify "primitive weapons".
 My point was that where do we draw the line at as to what constitutes traditional?

 It's interesting that you mention Native Americans, my Great, Great Grandmother was full blooded Cherokee and my father is a tribal member. I also have native blood from my mother but we have not been able to document it yet. But by default I'm at least 1/8 Cherokee, (Dad is 1/4). Even before I was aware of my bloodlines I asked a blessing for every animal I killed, it just seemed like the right thing to do.  

 I have always been a live and let live sort of person. I try very hard to do the right thing and not to offend anyone. I don't mind going outside to smoke my cigar but if you don't want to smell it stay upwind! My dogs stay in my yard, if you don't want your cat to be eaten keep him in your yard!
 
 I make no apologies to anyone for hunting or for killing game. I do think that taking the life of an animal is a very serious thing and not to be taken lightly. If my hunting offends someone I'm sorry but I'm not going to quit because of it. While I emphatically agree that hunters need all the supporters we can get there are some things I'm not willing to compromise to get them.

Here I go rambling again! Sorry!

[TRAP]

Hi fellas,  

Interesting discussion.  I'll be honest and say that I'm a little concerned about hunting today and concerned for the future of hunting.  

Maybe I'm just clinging to what I grew up with and regret the fact that it's changed so much in such a short period of time.  

Take small game hunting for example.  When I was a kid almost everyone that hunted started out hunting rabbits, squirrels dove and quail.  We set limb lines and bank poles along the creeks and fished in farm ponds.

Woodsmanship skills were learned during those impressionable days spent exploring local woodlots with gun or bow in hand.  I'm not saying the next generation won't be good woodsman.  Some will no doubt do very well.  

We live in an impatient, automated, convenience based world and unfortunately those societal norms have an impact on how people hunt.  ATVs, Compound bows, bean field rifles, in-line muzzleloaders, “robo-duck” duck decoys, fish finders,  GPS systems.  The list goes on and on.   Check out local sporting goods stores and discount chains and observe what they have on the shelf.  In most cases Traditional equipment won’t be found.  A youngster or an older beginner doesn’t have many choices, it’s either the modern high tech way or no way.

The Big Buck at any cost craze sells well and suppliers have capitalized on the hype.  The Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett record books were spawned for all the right reasons and still exist today for the right reasons but the quest for “book” bucks has led to the mass commercialization of the very simple act of pursuing game.

Our society has gotten lazy but in a big hurry.  A lazy man in a big hurry is going to invent something to get him there quicker and with less effort.  It’s the way of the world and hard to stomach when it  affects hunting as “it should be”.  

I’m not bashing compounds or ATVs or any of those things.  I’ll continue to hunt the way I do with self-imposed limitations that keep the hunting experience simple and satisfying for me.  

I can identify trees and have a pretty good idea where the squirrels will be during the changing seasons.  I have some favorite morel spots and I know when crappie bite the best in several lakes around where I live.   I hope the next generation will have as much fun outside as I have, but I have my doubts.

With fuel at $4.00 + per gallon I fear that fathers and mothers will be less likely to take youngsters on those valuable country excursions where so much is learned.

Oh well, enough rambling.  Trap

[Bjorn]

Those are good concerns, Trap. The skills and interest have to be passed on personally, you and me to each of our kids and nieces and nephews-maybe grandchildren if we are fortunate enough that they will listen to us.
There is no question that the job has gotten tougher........expense, access, video games, PETA, Nature Conservancy,and on and on.
But we have the knowledge and it is our responsibility to pass it on as best we can.

[Paul WA]

This is one of the best discussions I have seen on any site since Ive had a computer. Its good to see folks that still maintain a "Grassroots" approach to hunting.I hate the Hi-tech side of archery, not so much the compound as there are some very dedicated compound hunters but the gadgets and as David Petersen refers to it the "Outhouse Channel". I truly believe that these will be the items responsible for the demise of hunting as we know it. It probably wont happen in our lifetime but I see all hunting in the distant future being restricted to private ranches, pay to kill the animal of a lifetime..Yes it is very sad...PR

[Tsalagi]

Hi Paul,

I think you are correct. Around here, it's IMAGE, IMAGE, IMAGE. There are a lot of anti-hunters here, but generally when you nail their shoes to the floor on the issue in a serious talk, what about half of them are against are the clowns parked outside a bar with a bloody deer head hanging outside the bed of the truck.

Where I used to work, I'd hear about guys out there making the "huntin' camp" a place to get blind drunk. And sometimes, they're out there buzzed or half-drunk and hunting with a deadly weapon in their hands. These guys are laughing and bragging on this in the break room and one table over, there's a couple of people who I know are fairly liberal politically. I hear one tell the other, "Yeah, big men, huh? Out there drunk with guns shooting animals..." I made it a point to strike up a conversation with them another day and point out that those guys are not what I'd call hunters. But the damage was done. They overheard these guys say they got elk tags. It's not like we can do urine tests on people out there, but dang does it give us a black eye to have loudmouth clowns like that.

The sad thing is, the ethical hunters don't get seen because we don't feel the need to draw attention to ourselves and be the center of attention. We don't feel the need to be in-your-face to the rest of the public. We don't feel the need to kill something at all costs because it isn't about killing for us, and it isn't bagging some big buck so we can rub other peoples' faces in it. Because we don't rub peoples' faces in it, be those people hunters who didn't get anything or anti-hunters in order to get a reaction out of them.

One of the worst things around here on opening day is giant blaze orange signs that have big beer company logos on them and say "Welcome Hunters!" in front of the liquor stores. Every anti-hunter sees these and any time they criticize hunting, those signs are brought up. They rightly point out that alcohol and weapons don't mix, so why the signs? And, well, they're right. It's embarrassing. It's almost proving the stereotype the antis portray of the drunk hunter shooting at everything that moves. And we've had casualties here with hunters shot and killed during elk season and not by stray rounds.

I admire people like David Petersen who are out there walking the walk and not afraid of the hunting gear manufacturers. Too many writers are getting payola from the manufacturers and won't say a word on anything because of it. There's not much we can do except be the change we wish to see in hunting.

[Brian Krebs]

I found the following to be an interesting read; as it points out the tremendous drop in the number of hunters that say they are hunting for food. I have to wonder if 'horn porn' and the direction the 'outhouse channel' is taking; in leading us to not hunt for the experience and the meat; but for the taking of trophy animals. I am not slamming trophy hunters; as the best of us (ie: the Wensels and others ) look appropriate in a picture with a trophy animal.
 Key word 'trophy'.
When your after a trophy; and that is a high scoring animal; the importance of the meat seems to fall away from the subject of hunting.
 I think there has been some defense by the 'wack em and stack em' crowd; that they give the meat to the needy ( which I am not dissing).
 But somehow- if you make the meat almost something you have to apologize for..perhaps some stop hunting.. because they cannot ( as most of us can't)'keep up': with trophy hunters.
 If eating venison taken from a doe is not even a subject of discussion to the hunting public; then how can people feel good about it when exchanging thoughts with other hunters?
 I like to see people take big animals where I hunt (and I do not); because it is like part of a big mystery.  
 But if the direction of hunting is going towards scores; and numbers taken; then perhaps we have cheated those that are out there for the excitement and pride in taking their own game.

  Alcohol and acting stupid is better than no alcohol and no scoring animals...to too many.
   By the way; when I see someone drunk and hunting; I comment that 'the wild scares some people so bad that they lose control of their drinking'. I say it as a fact; not a supposition.
     

 The read I found interesting:

 Nationwide, the number of hunters has been in decline for decades. The country’s shift from rural to urban life is the main reason, said Mark Damian Duda, executive director of Responsive Management, a survey and research firm that specializes in natural resources and outdoor recreation issues.

According to his firm’s research, only 22 percent of hunters now say they hunt primarily for food. Most say they do so for recreation or to spend time with their families.

“Thirty years ago it was about half the hunters who were hunting for food,” Mr. Duda said.

[Tsalagi]

Well, I'll be totally honest. I got laid off from my job of 10 years in March and am not having any luck finding another. A couple weeks ago, buddy gave me 10 pounds of elk meat from his dad's hunt. It really made a difference that week. I hunt rabbits to stretch our budget. I'm not working and the first time in 25 years I can't find a job. Bringing home rabbits gives me something to do and I can feel good about that. It's hard being out of work this long. Never had this happen before. Hunting for meat gives me some meaning right now where I need it.

People who don't care about the meat haven't been out of work and haven't had to do without. I wish I had any size deer. I wouldn't care what size it was. Even the bones would find a use---broth. But meat's meat and I do get rabbits. But like I said, these "headhunters" should try being unemployed a while and then they could find out how important the meat really is.

[huntindad]

Kinda shoots holes in the idea that crossbows and inlines make for more opportunity thereby increasing the hunting populace.Maybe the message that there is always a way to make hunting easier so even "you" can be successful is the wrong message and being sent to  the wrong type of people.I think we need more people that want the challenge of working hard to succeed even if their only successful at working hard. Bill

[huntindad]

Sorry to hear that Tsalagi .Hope you can find something soon. When I was a kid my family was pretty low income as times were tough where I lived but my dad worked as often as he could and always provided for 4 kids.I always had clothes and a fishing pole a pellet gun and a bow with a rag-tag bundle of arrows. I never knew we were poor but we were dad only had one change of clothes and mom not much more.We were without a doubt meat hunters ducks ,rabbits ,squirrels, quail,deer and seafood since we lived by the coast.I am somewhat ashamed to admit that we were opportunistic and did not always pay much attention to seasons.What disgusts me is that there are scumbags out there shooting and leaving game as we speak without any shame whatsoever! Oh they might cut the antlers off so they can show them to their scumbag friends or maybe just come back next year and find it as a "lion kill" or "dead head".I am not saying that all of the previous are poached but the posting of them on the brag sites does somewhat encourage this IMO.Now I know that legally we were poachers also and I won't excuse it but its apples and oranges if you ask me.A man who is down on his luck and capable should feed his family.As always I hope my opinion does not offend anyone or reflect negatively on the fine members of this site.                                Again I hope things look up for you Tsalagi if there is any way I can ever help...Ask. Bill

[Tsalagi]

Thanks, Bill. I appreciate that. I think a human being has a natural right to forage for food. There's a world of difference between a guy who takes an animal because he needs the food and a guy who poaches an elk to get a few hundred dollars for the antlers---usually so he can go buy some tweek.

What kinda gets me is we have a system out here that tends to favor hunters with a lot of cash. A working man can hardly afford an elk tag here; especially not now. How come we can't, say, have a guy who lives here prove he's out of work or barely making it and get that tag at an affordable price? I'd call it sustainance hunting tags.

[huntindad]

Outstanding idea on the sustainance tag.Instead game dept.s think its better to raffle the tag s that are more apt to provide the hunter with success or make them harder for the guy who can't afford to put in for the draw every year and the tags that are easy to get go to the guy who could probably use that governor type tag the most.Its funny to me how many of the guys you see on magazine covers time after time are probably great guys and good hunters but are most likely wealthy and  able to buy these extremely expensive hunts year after year. How can that possibly be fulfilling to them.I am fortunate enough to put in for 3 or 4 states every year but I don't draw very often and when I do I try to hunt for the best animal I can find mainly because it makes my hunt last longer but I won't lie it is fulfilling to me to shoot a large animal.To kill all of these big bucks and bulls that are tagged with $10,000 and up tags is just that killing and I do not understand the concept. And I am glad I don't. I am afraid all of us common men will be poachers as it will cost too much to pursue the kings game. Bill

[Tsalagi]

I totally agree, Bill. Kinda funny...Robin Hood was outlawed for hunting the king's deer---with a longbow.

It does concern me deeply to see hunting becoming a rich man's game. Traditionally, here in this country, the working people have been the backbone of hunting. If we're priced out of it, what will happen? Teddy Roosevelt was from a rich family, but he learned hunting and cowboying from working people. I don't begudge a wealthy person hunting. What I don't like is them bringing the Rolls Royce Rules into it where they buy their way into a big buck instead of putting in the sweat equity the rest of us give. This puts the Cha-Ching sounds to tinkling in the heads of state game and fish authorities---and the manufacturers of gear and also the gun rag writers.

  It kinds reminds me of what's happened to Christmas. Used to be Christmas was about family getting together, visiting, having a nice homecooked meal together, listening to Christmas songs and exchanging some simple but meaningful gifts. People forget why "White Christmas" and "I'll Be Home For Christmas" became so huge. They were recorded and released during World War Two, when just having dad-brother-son home safe from the war would have been THE best gift ever---and the men fighting overseas wanted to be home "in time for Christmas". Man, how we've forgotten all about that lesson. Used to be, the "big thing" was picking out the tree. If you were lucky, you got one thing you wanted if you were a kid. If your folks could afford it. Now, my gosh, it's like a piranha feeding frenzy the day after Thanksgiving! Some poor guy at a WalMart got trampled to death last year during a Christmas shopping frenzy. Everyone has to get all the latest, newest (and, of course, concommitantly more expensive)toys for the kids. It's all about the money. Peace on Earth, goodwill towards men...what's that? Gotta get out and spend, spend, spend or it won't be Christmas! Where is the joy of just being together as a family even if no one gets the shiny new electronic doodad that'll never tell you all the things your grandad knows and you'll wish you asked him years down the road? And hunting is going this direction, sadly. Gotta get the newest gear! Gotta hire the best (and, therefore, most expensive) guide. Gotta get the biggest rack. Gee, what happened to the traditions? Teaching your kids about Nature, and respect for the animals, and about how it ISN'T about "winning"----it's about HOW you played the game.

I don't know; maybe I'm a sentimentalist.

All about the money is correct.  A local game warden gave me a heads up, that the crossbow companies are throwing money around to get crossbows legal for deer hunting in Iowa.  They are touting the financial and efficiency gains, apparently you cannot trust country politicians either, because they are listening to this crap, probably with their pockets open. Just like the climategate fraud, it seems the onslaught of infringement shows no end in sight on all fronts.

[Tsalagi]

Look at what happened to "muzzleloader season". The guys that lobbied for that were talking about flintlocks and percussion replicas of actual pre-smokeless firearms. Well, those take practice to master. You know, ya gotta be a shooter! Well, can't have that! No we have these scoped "inlines" with Pyrodex pellets, plastic saboted copper jacketed bullets, and shotgun primers! That isn't right. These things are basically modern firearms tweeked just a skowsh to get into the muzzleloader season. Is it proper a guy with a scope comes in and says he deserves to hunt in the same season as a guy with an iron-sighted flintlock? Not in my book.

Crossbows. You know, it'd be bad enough if they were talking about even Medieval Period replica crossbows. But that isn't what they're talking about. They're talking about compound crossbows with scopes. And those scopes are often illuminated reticle scopes that offer an advantage all their own in low light woods. Compound bows possess an advantage over traditional bows. Crossbows offer an advantage over compound bows. Combined, they're hardly archery at all. What they are is a sophisticated dart launching platform.

What's happening to both muzzleloader and archery seasons isn't the "camel's nose under the tent" anymore. The camel is IN the tent, in the bed, eating crackers and farting.

[Don Stokes]

The primitive weapon season here in MS used to be restricted to muzzleloaders and bows. Now it also includes old single-shot smokeless-powder cartridge guns and replicas of them. You can go down to your local sporting goods store and buy a gun and preloaded ammo, including scope, and hunt in the "primitive" weapons season! Nothing primitive about it. The sporting goods stores can't give away their muzzleloaders now.

For a few years, we had a late-season archery season that began in mid-January after gun season closed, and ran to the end of the month. Now it's "primitive" weapon season, too.

[Tsalagi]

So, Don, are they considering like Thompson Center Encores and Ruger No. 1s as good to go for that?

[hunt it]

Nice can of worms to open Andy! There has always been slob hunters and always will be. I don't think there is a downward spiral of real hunters going on. I think it is all about $$$ these days and what people want to see. All these wakem stackem shows would not be on the air if no one was watching. It seems everybody and their brother is rounding up a good looking gal and going hunting/filming to make $$$ or at least covering their hunting $$$. They will come and go fast - as there is no quicker way to kill a passion than turn it into a buisiness for the most part.

Unfortunatly all this exposure/filming is also bringing their bad hunting/killing metheods to the forefront. Thus in turn making the true hunter look like a slob in eyes of non hunters. This we should be concerned about, but the almighty $$$ will win over us anyday.

As for ETHICS thats a dicy one at best of time. DNR and Game Commissions and Ministries have tried for years to see how to legislate ethics into game laws. It's a hard one to cover with laws. Every man and woman on earth has their own set of ethics. Some even change theirs from day to day!

I believe what Andy is really disgusted at is the lack of true hunting skills displayed by many. To go forth and hunt free ranging game by spot and stalk methoeds. To say the Trad community is above this (skin me now) a far cry from the truth.

I will not mention any names but there are lots in our own ranks of well known trad archers. Many an animal has been shot at water holes with artificial lights. Many an animal that is fenced in has been hunted. Some will even speak against such practices in North America then jump on a plane to Africa and go do it behind a fence. Their defence - it's a big place! As Andy mentioned above, alot of hunting operations are simply put and take based on $$$ (almost all in South Africa). When you leave a helicopter or truck brings in the replacement critters for ones you took. Is this truly hunting? You decide that for yourself.

[freefeet]

I just don't think there's anything sacred anymore.  If there's a profit to be made you can bet your ass that someone will do it and ethics be damned.  The more money to be made the less ethics are considered at all.

Let's be honest, the only time ethics are considered in a capitalist society is when someone finds a way of profiting out of them.

In the UK the Conservative party are probably going to win the next election and then legalise hunting foxes with huge packs of dogs chased by upper class idiots on horses.  But they won't legalise bowhunting cause it's historically a riff raff plebian thing over here.  Hunting with packs of dogs and horses is a good money spinner, hunting with a bow and arrow makes no one any money and worse still will allow the plebs to put free food on the table instead of going to capitalist supermarkets - can't have that now can we?

Sorry, i know, i'm ranting.  But this world is going down the u-bend at a very fast rate.

But i shall go on with my traditions, and will go on trying to foster other's understanding of why they are so important.  And when the capitalist system falls to pieces, which it surely will, it'll be the traditionalists that will survive, not those with the most money - cause money won't mean anything then.

[lonstand]

Hunting today is not like it was 40 years ago. For one thing there are a lot more bow hunters than there used to be in the 70's however there are a lot more deer now than in the past. Access is more difficult and now there is no end to new hunting products that are availiable to the general hunting public.