How did Jefferson know?

[wapitimike1]

Don't sit by and let your country be taken over by these Bazirkley CA libs. Get out go to events and make sure that Conservatives get in office to stop parasite mentality. Take action and motivate like minded people to vote these dependency scumbags out of office!!

[Tsalagi]

Achilles, were you an adult in 1933? No? Then I humbly suggest you're not in a position to judge those who were. You weren't there. But you might consider trotting down to your local library and reading some books about the Great Depression. You can also find books explaining exactly what socialism is (written by its founder---ten points if you can name that person) and what fascism is and why those two things are opposites. When I was a kid, we had a school program called Reading Is Fundamental. A great program. Reading, truly, IS fundamental. Especially in maintaining a free society governed by law and not demogoguery.

  Your quote by Jefferson doesn't explain to me how the return to gold and silver currency solves all our problems. Please respond with how it does. I am still waiting.
 
  Now, the quote by Jefferson you cite is actually making reference to corporate capitalism, not socialism. I maintain you're still mixing these things up. See, socialism as an economic system didn't exist when Jefferson was around. Ten points to you if you can tell me why.

  Another thing. If FDR was a "socialist" (and, he wasn't), then he would not have "admired" Mussolini. I don't know what wacky website you pulled that off of. Mussolini was the founder of fascism. Another ten points to you if you can tell me from what object fascism derives its name. Fascism and socialism are direct opposites.

  It is important to know the meaning of words. It is also important to know historical facts. So, you have some homework. I'll be awaiting the response on how gold and silver coinage saves us, among other things.

[-Achilles-]

I said he enacted socialist ideas...He did say he admired Mussolini.
I did not insult anyone who lived back then.


It will not solve ALL our problems to go back to gold and silver but it is unconstitutional to do otherwise.One way it will help is that the fed won't be able to inflate or deflate the value of a Dollar the way they did in 1929 when they crashed the stockmarket.

I'm not going to get into a debate about Franklin D. Roosevelt being socialist or not.

If you do some searches you can find the info.

Maybe in your opinion he wasn't socialist.

Here is the constitution class and he talks about all of this and FDR videos 37 38 and 39.38 is particularly funny.


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvQg6DGNm5A&feature=related

[-Achilles-]

"corporate capitalism"....."the banks and CORPORATIONS that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

[Tsalagi]

Well, unfortunately, a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography. Kind of like the difference between a bag of potato chips and filet mignon, with You Tube being the bag of potato chips. Again, reading is fundamental. Especially for the health of a free nation of laws.

  But, I am intrigued. Tell me how the federal government cannot inflate the price of gold coins, but can do so with paper money? You are aware that gold prices can be manipulated as sure as prices paid for grain, yes? Further to that, in many cases, gold is subject to fluctuating prices due to supply and demand. Gold value is not a constant. So, tell me how gold as money is a solution? And to what specific problems? I'm interested.

[mwmwmb]

a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography.

Facts and Data need not apply.  

[-Achilles-]

Please look it up yourself don't take my word for it.That man in the video has studied this for 18 years."George washington payed the same amount for a loaf of bread as Abraham lincoln did"

[-Achilles-]

"a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography."...Youtube is not a book but its VERY informative you can learn just about anything on it.I would trust youtube or any alternative media before I would trust fox or cnn.

[Tsalagi]

Achilles, I don't listen to much that the American media says. I check out some books from the library and find out things for myself.

Precious metal currency is a non-solution to our current problems. Our current problems are not caused by the way wealth is measured or determined or what represents it (gold, silver, etc.) The problems is too much wealth in the hands of too few who then do not spend it but, rather, use it to achieve non-democratic and tyrannical political power. We live as subjects to neo Nero and Caligula, but because they're corporations, no one sees it as tyranny. If the government insisted on doing things to people that companies do routinely as policy, people would be crying bloody murder. But no one wants to admit that.

[FrankM]

Fascism and Socialism are not opposites. They are both similar. The only difference, as said by Adolf Hitler, is that Fascism includes a racial component. Hitler said that Fascism, without racism, would give Communism a run for it's money in claiming the socialist crown. If that's not enough for you, Nazis were the National Socialist Party. They attacked big business and unions as much as the Communists. Personal freedom only exists in Republics or Democracies.

[Tsalagi]

Not exactly, Frank.  

  Fascism itself does not include a racist element per se. Fascism was basically invented by Benito Mussolini, who named it after the Fasces. The Fasces was an ax tied into a bundle of rods, carried by two Lictors, in front of high Roman officials as a sign of Roman power and authority during the period of Ancient Rome. Italy refused to hand over its Jewish population to Germany. It was after Mussolini's death that the Germans came in and sent the Jewish Italians they could grab to conentration camps. Fascism is a nationalist authoritarian form of government that is founded upon corporatism in league with government.

  National Socialism is basically the idea of Fascism which Hitler stole from Mussolini and then added his own warped perspectives on Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and homosexuals. Hitler (like Mussolini) did not attack Big Business at all. On the contrary, big corporations such as IG Farben, Krupp, and several others got rich. In fact, that is why several large German corporations had to pay reparations to Holocaust survivors after the war. And to this day, paper trails that lead to big German corporations are still being followed to make them pay reparations.

  There is nothing in Fascism or National Socialism that says the workers should own the means of production and produce goods for their own needs without profits. That is what pure socialism is. There is state socialism where the state, representing workers, owns the means of production. That isn't Fascism or National Socialism at all. In Fascism and National Socialism, capitalism survives, in fact, corporations prosper greatly under those systems since both quash unions.

  Have a look at a WW2 K-98 Mauser. You'll see marks from Mauser or Sauer or a couple other private corporations that made that weapon. Messerschmitt made their planes, Krupp made artillery, IG Farben made Zyklon B, Daimler Benz made Hitler's staff cars, Walther made their pistols, and on and on. You know Oskar Schindler? Schindler's List? Yes, he was a private industrialist playing like he wanted to use Jewish slave labor for his factory. He was able to do that because lots of German corporations were doing that, and that's why they had to pay reparations after the war.

  So, no, they're not the same things at all.

[FrankM]

The Communists and Fascists in pre-1933 Germany, usually backed each other up in voting, because the goals were usually socialist in general and served both parties at that time. And they recognized each other as "socialist parties".

 And no, Nazism wasn't corporatism in league with government. They were allowed to exist only if they did the government's bidding. There was no partnership. A partnership would allude to freedom on the part of capitalists. It didn't exist. Schindler would have been executed if he had said "no" to the Nazis. And another would have taken his place. A corrupt quasi-capitalism, is not capitalism by definition. It's more akin to mideavel serfdom. When the Fascists took control, capitalism ended with the Republic.

This is the same thing Communists do. The leadership in Soviet Russia lived "wealthy" lives compared to the rest. If you were a party member, the higher you moved, you got more. In function, Fascism and Communism are mostly the same. And a socialist government cannot exist without the control of the people's rights. Socialism requires control. It cannot exist without it. Social Security as an institution cannot exist unless they "force us" to participate. Socialism without control is chaos. It cannot exist. Therefore, socialism is anti-freedom. And it is more inline in political theory to fascism and communism than capitalism.

For capitalism, it does better under a republic than a democracy. Too much democracy makes for majority control, which again, moves to the left of the political spectrum to socialism. Which means more control of individuality and individual achievement.

Therefore, a republic is the best form of modern government, tempered with democratic processes, and maybe a bit of socialism. But, just a bit. Kinda like the Founding Fathers described.

[Tsalagi]

Wrong. Again, you are mixing up Fascists and Nazis. Again, the Fascists were in Italy under Mussolini, the Nazis were in Germany under Hitler.

 So, all socialism is bad, huh? So, despite the fact that most Scandinavian countries have a higher standard of living than the U.S. (having some socialist policies in their social welfare programs), it's bad. Sure.

  Now, quid pro quo. Soviet communism and socialism are not the same things. You need to go back and read your Karl Marx, Frank.

  Capitalism is about freedom, huh? Guess that's why employers have policies stating they have the right to search your car and your person, for any reason. Guess that's why companies can forbid you from having ANY weapon in your car (including a knife of any type)if parked in their lot. Guess that's why it's perfectly legal for an employer to fire you for having a political candidate's bumper sticker on your car. Guess that's why employers do credit checks on prospective employees--even to sling coffee at minimum wage. Guess that's why it's perfectly legal for an employer to fire you for writing a letter to the editor on a wholly non-work issue. Guess that's why corporations retaliate against people using their First Amendment rights by hitting them with a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Tell me more about control of individuality. Because I'm not buying that at all.

[FrankM]

Fascists, Nazis, Communists. All socialist. Scandinavia, third way, between communism and capitalism. Higher standard of living per capita, less individual freedom. Nice people too. Selling weapons to the West and the East at the same time. Marx was a socialist. And I've read Marx, Freire, and a bunch of other nutjobs. I didn't say capitalism was about freedom, I said you can't be capitalist unless you are free. Corporations having policies to control their employees is because gutless courts will not rule on the side of the individual. This is "corporate socialism", not republicanism.

All control is anti-freedom. Freedom cannot exist in a socialist context. By definition, socialism is "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few". Or do you disagree with that? And if so? Tell me how people are more free under socialism? No where are people more free than the USA. You can say others have a better standard of living, or are safer, or whatever. But, no one is more free.

[FrankM]

Look dude, this is gonna get old. You can read this if you want. Up to you. Feel free to disagree with it if you want. It's not perfect, but the gist is there.

 http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html

[Brian Krebs]

Its OK you guys; its just winter. There are spring bear and turkey hunts real soon. You will be OK; honest.    

[JC]

This forum is "Hunting Legislation & Policies"....not "political ideals debate."

Moving on....