Serious issues for archery season in Oklahoma.

[Brian Krebs]

me and my big mouth....   electronic crossbow !!

[Stringwacker]

Originally posted by Tsalagi:
Dare I say? I dare. There are a lot of people that think as long as it's "hunting" we have to support it or the evil anti-hunters will win. I tend to think this line of thought is advanced by sporting goods manufacturers who want to sell equipment. Too many advocacy groups are taking money from big manufacturers. And, so, they will come out in support of crossbows. They'd come out in support of RPG-7s, if they were legal to own. And you'd see people, also, saying, "Well, what's the difference between a 20mm Vulcan and a regular rifle?! They're both firearms!"---and lobby for heavy small arms into firearms season, if they thought they could do it and Vulcans were over-the-counter and available. There's guys I heard of using .50BMG sniper rifles and shooting elk further away than anyone with a scoped .300WinMag could hope to hit.


What we have is what I call "season creep". When seasons for muzzleloaders, for example, were established, they were thinking of flintlocks and replica Hawkens and such. Well, learning to shoot those takes practice and, honestly, many Americans are just too dadgum lazy to put in that kind of effort. So, someone with an eye to cashing in--Cha-CHING!---thought up inline muzzeloaders that are basically modern firearms loaded from the front. There! No muss, no fuss, Pyrodex pellets, shotgun primers, and saboted copper-jacketed bullets! And they allow them into the muzzleloader season.

The crossbows they will allow into crossbow seasons are as unrecognizeable even to Medieval crossbows as a Lexus is to a horse-drawn carriage. Scopes, adjustable triggers, the works. This is not archery; this is modern technology masquerading as archery.

Nice post and 'spot on' on the season creep. I tend to call it 'the progression theory' but I like your term better. There is so much rationalization based on 'this should be legal, because what I want_______ (illegal) is so much like _____ (legal). Using such rationalizations I could build an argument from slingshots to nuclear weapons because each concession creates new attributes that can be used to lead to something else. It never stops.

The comments about muzzleloader innovation was extremely good. Mississippi & Lousiana now allow centerfire single shot rifles in the "primitive" weapon season. This was also brought about by 'season creep'. There's abig push this year to eliminate the season structure entirely as no one remembers why we have it. It is no longer distinct. The changes added about 10,000 participates in 'primitive' weapon season...yet the season will end this year. So much with all that safety in numbers stuff that crossbow advocates often say.

I've said for years that all special seasons are in trouble because we have an expanding deer herd and a contracting hunter base...the opposite of what special seasons were created for.

As far as the Oklahoma crossbow issue, never give up the fight. We have fought the issue for years in Mississippi and have been 'so far' successful. I'm sure we will face the issue again in January when the legislature goes into session. Season creep is your best argument. It gives your bowhunter base a clear reason to understand why crossbows should be opposed for general archery use. The issue isn't about crossbows...it's really about archery season survival and the crossbow is just a cog on the wheel in the process of weapon blending and change.

[12ringman]

Fortunately, this was just a pre proposal and not a formal proposal. They was wanting to hear comments about that and extending the gun season to 23 days. I am going to propose to go back to a 9 day gun season among other things. I did ask about a antler restriction and nearly got ran out of the place. I went to school for biology and wrote several papers on whitetail management and these guys acted like I crawled out from under a rock. It was like I was talking to a bunch of kindergartners about saving their Halloween candy for the next day.

[Tsalagi]

Thanks, Stringwacker. These are things I've been thinking about for awhile.

I tend to think that seasons need precise definitions of what is and is not a proper weapon. Once the camel's nose is under the tent, it takes less than a year for sporting goods manufacturers to then shove an entire herd of camels into the tent.

Let's say an atlatl season was established. It would take less than a year for some manufacturer to come up with a compound atlatl or something else. Or a shoulder-mounted ballista, saying, hey, it "throws a spear", right? Same principle, right? More than likely, they'd tweak a fishing speargun and say, "Look, it's technically an atlatl!" And game and fish departments would just shrug and say ok.

People say, well, what's the dif? Why can't a crossbow be in archery season? Ok, well, why don't they allow performance-enhancing drug use in the Olympics? Because it's giving an advantage the people following the totality of the rules---what's on paper as well as the spirit of it---don't have. And once you do that, then it becomes known that "anything to win" is permissible. The next thing after the drugs would be, in the future, bionic implants and people genetically engineered as athletes. Then what's the point of the game at all? We don't see the "best man or woman winning", we see the best research and dvelopment departments winning.

That's what's happening to hunting. Rather than the totality of the experience being the reward, it's now a competition to see what weapon you can get away with using and nailing the biggest buck as fast as possible with zero effort and zero skill. To do what? Make it back into town to gloat? I'm old-fashioned. I think having bragging rights are when you put in the sweat equity and accomplished something using your own mind and body and skills, without cheating or shortcutting. But that isn't what's promoted. What's promoted is bagging the biggest buck in the woods by any means possible. I bet some guys would call in helicopter gunships if they could, since they could program the chin turret to leave the rack untouched.

[Stringwacker]

As it relates to Oklahoma, crossbows, season creep etc...one has to keep in mind that so much of the archery community's reluctance to change is based on bowhunting ideology. To be more consise...a expectation of what bowhunting should and shouldn't be in the mind of the user. The problem with that approach is the biologist and elected officials that are empowered to make game regulations usually have no frame of reference to that ideology as most don't bowhunt. Given a choice of the easy way or the hard way...the easy way wins out as that is the story of mankind. Making something hard when it can be easy is a foreign concept to the modern world. Therefore any argument based on ideology eventually loses.

Far better are arguments based on facts rather than emotion. In my part of the world, states that have adopted crossbow legalization have seen a decline...not increase in archery participation. In most cases...from the first year the crossbow was legalized! Clearly the crossbow is not living up to it's claims of more archery particpation...so what else might be suspect in the crossbow propaganda?

I think there is a huge social issue going on where people are realizing it's not an issue of loosing their opporunity to hunt with a bow (officials are quick to point out that you still can hunt your way... even if Johnny hunts 'his' way) but rather a loss of the hunting environment or feel for what the season is or should be that affects an individual happiness.

At the end of the day only happy hunters buy hunting licenses. It's time for the DNR's and legislatures to realize that hunters are their customers...not their servants. As valued customers, DNR's should be listening to what hunters (bowhunters in this instance) says.

[huntindad]

Well put stringwacker another facet to your first point of non-bowhunters being in the positions to regulate is the argument of accuracy is lost because to them more accurate means more ethical. Bill

[Tsalagi]

Exactly so, Stringwacker. In this state, hunters are the revenue and funding source for AZ Game and Fish. Big problem. In such a case, we're not really customers here, but vassals paying tribute.

[Brian Krebs]

I have noted for a long time that we hunters are not considered to be anything more than vassals.

 I keep hearing the argument that we all need to stick together- but I do not subscribe to the 'Lemming thinking'.

 In California the residents voted on whether or not there should be a mountain lion season; and the people in areas not effected by lions- like cities- voted against hunting them; while the people in the rest of the state ( suburbia and beyond) voted for hunting lions.

 The result was that people unaffected by lion problems controlled the vote. The people with lion problems lost.
 And now more lions are killed by the state; as problem lions- than were killed by hunters when there was a season.

 Fish and wildlife departments were formed and supported by hunters. Hunters created the departments and supported them; not to outlaw hunting; but to make hunting possible.
 They tend to forget that.

 I remember the first attempt to get crossbows in archery season in Michigan; and how there was a dramatic objection. But that was before the compound became the path of most bowhunters.
 It was hard back then to make the leap in logic from hunting with a trad bow; to using a crossbow in bow season.

 But- once compounds reigned - the ideology and of the bowhunter became theirs - not ours.

 So- when fish and game departments make decisions about bow season rules; they look at the masses; and the masses are people that do not hunt with a traditional bow; and do not understand what it means: to hunt with a traditional bow.

 So our voice just does not count.

 I think it is almost a blessing that the guy made the electric crossbow. Its a prototype really; you know people will make them quieter and work the bugs out; and get an automatic crossbow on the market.

 And many will argue that its OK; as they will be OK for people that are disabled to use. They improve the chances of loss of game because you can follow up with another shot quickly.

 I have seen people with no legs shoot traditional bows. I have seen a girl with no arms shoot a traditional bow. I shot a deer when I had a broken shoulder - by taping a longbow to my foot; and drawing back with my good arm.
 When I broke my wrist - I put a sling around my arm above the elbow; and a strap from that to a release- and drew back the bow with my arm and shot just fine.
 Yes - there are people that cannot shoot a longbow or recurve- but I think that is only because they have not learned a way to do it.

 I have often heard people say they want to hunt with a bow - but don't have time to practice; so they are getting a 'doctors OK' to shoot a crossbow.

 Here in Idaho; there are thousands of left over non resident tags - because of the wolves; and tag costs. Extending seasons with a use of a bow - is a viable option....except that it takes practice to get good enough. So- more people are trying to take shortcuts. Crossbows are the perfect shortcut.

 But it is a shortcut that takes people down the wrong path.

 And yet; as their numbers grow... their voice counts more.

 And yes- we become more and more: vassals.

Covering our ears; our eyes and our mouths- is not going to help us.

[mwmwmb]

While Ideologically I agree with much that has been said.

I would like to remind folks that we game biologists have to manage the game. there are many means to that end. in many areas game species populations are growing and hunter numbers are in decline, meanwhile development expands into habitat. Deer (or other game) become a nusiance to these new SUBARBAN folks.

I will use Arkansas as an example: we have have a bow season from Oct 1- feb 28. 1% of deer harvests come from Jan-feb. they have lengthened rifle seasons and game populations are growing. Again there are many options for management. my personal suggestion would be requiring the harvest of a doe before a buck. however many of the good ole boys cant imagine such a thing. but the bottom line in our state is state biologist are confined by governor appointed commisionors (i.e. good ole boys).

We (as trad bow hunters) chose this style of hunting for the challenge. this is a choice and i personally value the freedom to choose that. We are out numbered and i would hate to think that other hunters would be lobbying against my right to choose to hunt with my chosen form of hunting.

[huntindad]

mwmwmb,I think most here including myself understand game departments face numerous challenges in controlling wildlife populations, hunter numbers and the balance between them and most don't have a problem with the crossbow or the inline or others as a weapon to be used for hunting the issue becomes when do you allow them in the woods.As an example if they put crossbows with traditional muzzleloaders  and leave inlines with modern firearms I think most of the complaints would go away, at least those about crossbows and inlines.The problem in the west is populations aren't such that you can give everyone a season so in trying to please everyone (esp. the various industries) they lump them into seasons that already exist even if it is detrimental to game management and hunter enjoyment. BILL

[Mike Spaulding]

I believe it just comes down to more $$.  You can tell the state game commissions that crossbows don't belong in archery season and show them sound justification of that argument, and unfortunetly get no where.  If you only allow crossbows during regular gun, the state won't sell a single more stamp.. but if you allow them during archery.. well now you get to sell a whole bunch more tags... done deal.. drives me crazy.. I look at all this from the perspective of a guy who grew up in Western NY, talk about a mess up there!  all about the $$.

[J-dog]

Supporting an industry is all they are doin. Hate it for yall. Think of all the outta staters that never hunted with a bow taking advantage of the "bow season" to get in there and hunt "big bucks."

Stinks -

J