MDC

[-Achilles-]

Hey I'm with ya brother on that.If I kill 2 deer a year with a bow I'm happy and I don't care how big or small.I do rifle hunt but its for fun and kind of a family get together thing.I don't take it seriously.I have taken my bow during gun season.

As a guy once told me "gun season is for amateurs"

I knew a guy that was a serious poacher that would use up all his tags,then have other people buy tags and tag the deer he killed.He killed ALOT.Once he got busted with a turkey.He actually tells the game warden after getting his ticket "thats just 1 more turkey that will die this year".I hated that sob and karma had its way with him thankfully.I can actually accept a certain amount of poaching when I know that its a poor guy that just needs food but that sob had it coming.

I'm sure you will get your big rack buck eventually.Thats what makes its special is it being so hard or rare to get.

I know a guy his first time out in the woods(real green horn).Sits down at his spot opening morning of rifle season and shot a huge deer within 30 minutes of sitting down.I was like "you lucky sob" I'm not sure what it scored but it was huge for this area.

Man I'm psyched.Expecting a Hill bow in the mail any day.yeehaw

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
...how else do you think he managed to get that big?

Not to belabor the point, but your example backed up my statement.  That big spike owned his patch of the woods.  He was bigger, badder and stronger than his competitors and his daggers gave him a selective advantage to mate the available does.  That is the definition of the fittest individual.

I have a similar situation around my house (I live in the sticks).  Since a 4pt showed up a few years ago all the 8 and 10pts I had been seeing have left.  He was big when his momma kicked him out of her woods and he's huge and muscular now, but still just a fork horn.  I didn't realize where the big racks went until I saw this guy clear a bachelor group of 6 and 8 pointers out of a field one night.  That fork horn is king.  The downside is I'm not seeing the big racks while out and about... the upside is I'm seeing bigger fawns and yearlings who are better able to survive the winters and evade predators.

Today's notion of what constitutes a 'quality' deer is heavily influenced by the horn porn industry and I don't see that changing anytime soon.  I love seeing big racks too, but the biologist in me knows that if you're selecting for big racks that's all you'll get.

To manage for herd health mimic a natural predator: take the excess young, the old, the weak and the incredibly stupid     Let the deer that are in their prime battle it out to see who's fittest, keep the population at or below the carrying capactity of the land, and you'll end up with a very healthy herd.  Not always big racks though    That's why I'm against any kind of point rule.

Enjoy your hunting season!  I'd love to get down your way sometime and wander the Ozarks.  Living in CT the last 9 years has me really missing mountains.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

If that's what your after Jeremy, then I'm sure your happy with a bunch of fat spikes and fork horns but I'm not. You even said the fork horn ran all the 8 and 10pts. off, that's what I want to avoid. The most dominant buck is not always the one with the most impressive head gear, but attitude is.
Our ideas on herd management differ drastically, and I'm not saying your ideas are wrong, just different from mine.
I've got the proof that I need that what my brother and I are doing works and our herd is as healthy as any. The trophy is in the eye of the beholder and we all see it differently. I want bigger racked bucks, and I know how to manage for them. Problem is that Missouri has taken that management tool out of my hands to some extent, and that's what this discussion is really all about. I think we as hunters should be allowed to manage deer on our own property the way we think it should be, but never the less the law is the law and we all must abide by it.

The state of Texas allows ranchers to manage their deer herds for trophy class bucks, the state also has a set of guidelines for the general hunting regulations to achieve that goal. It just so happens that the ranchers and the state are on the same page when it comes to herd management and the state's regulations for legal bucks and illegal bucks reflect those interests.
Texas has some really huge racked bucks, so the proof is in the product.

We will never be able to control a deer herd completely unless they are captive behind a high fence, even then mother nature still prevails.
All we can do as hunters is help steer it in the right direction through selective harvest.

[fredhill]

doe #6 went down this morning in st. louis county. biggest doe i have shot in many years.  she dressed at 127 lbs.!

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Awesome. They need some killed over there around Town and Country too! They gripe and complain about the deer eating their flowers, trees, and shrubs, but don't want them killed......how pathetic.

Nice job Fred!  

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I just gotta vent a little bit and I'll spit it out there and let my fellow Missourians hava crack at this.

It's about the youth seasons and their intended purpose of getting the youngsters involved in deer hunting.....which I am all for so please don't get me wrong.

I just read in the Missouri Deer Hunting magazine, flyer, newspaper whatever you want to call it, about a  14yr old teenager  who killed a huge buck during the youth rifle season in October of this year.
The article tells the story about how this kid's uncle shot a decent 8pt. with a bow and the nephew bragged about how he was going to get this monster buck they had on trail camera during the youth season.....all good right?

Well, it also went on to say that he was hunting out of his tripod stand, saw some does then moved to another one of  HIS STANDS  and eventually shot this big buck with his .308 then immediately afterwards called his dad on his cell phone...... What?   :mad:  

You mean to tell me that this  14 year old young man  has multiple treestands, that he obviously hunts by himself, shoots a  .308  rifle which kicks harder than my own .270 and can keep his nerve about him enough to drop a huge buck.......and still needs to have special privileges to hunt the youth season??  
 

There's something terribly wrong with this picture!
I know that MDC makes it legal for a youth to hunt by themselves if they have the hunter education course, I know because I looked it up.
But how is that ethical or fair to the rest of us?

I've been hunting during the  Regular season  since the age of  12 years old , I had my hunter ed. course, and my father was always within ear shot of me so he could be there within a minute or so of hearing me shoot or holler for help.

At what point is a kid big enough to take it on their own, and no longer need to be guided along? I'd say that it's about age 13 or 14 when they can have multiple stands, dad no longer needs to babysit them, and they can handle the recoil of a .308......am I wrong?

This is one regulation I absolutely do not agree with. Kids can legally hunt on a youth tag and take full advantage of the youth seasons until  age 15 , then when they turn 16 they must be hunter ed. certified and hunt the regular season.

This is also where I think the department fails us legal, ethical, hard working and hunting Joes who only wish to be treated fairly in our home state. It's not right to coax the youth along with special privileges, seasons, and methods until they reach young adulthood.
That's just not acceptable, and it's not fair to the rest of us.

OK, I'm done now........please offer your thoughts on this.

[DVSHUNTER]

bashing the kids for killing a big buck sounds pretty bad. So he 14 good for him! Let the kids hunt. Just because you think it isn't fait that the kid gets to hunt with a rifle earlier than you doesn't make his acievment any less. So the kid can shoot a 308 good for him! I got my 300mag @ 14 and killed a nice buck with it... By myself!  I was kinda with you up till that post. I think your last post may have been on the jealous side. I hope that fourteen year old continues to have much success, and in closing... I don't like Bed Bath and Beyond. I don't like what goes on there. So I don't go there and guess what. Now it doesn't bother me anymore.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I think you misunderstood my post David, I wasn't bashing anybody for anything. As well, you don't need to crawl up in my arse about it either. Your entitiled to your opinon absolutely, but there are many others out there that agree with what I said in my post.

There needs to be a reasonable cut off point where the child is no longer a child, and that is the point where they don't need a guardian or a mentor to help them along in the deer woods.
When a child becomes a young man, can hang tree stands, have multiple tree stands and hunt like an adult without daddy sitting right next to him.....then it's time to hunt with the big boys and not the kids.

I think the youth season is a good thing, that's where you got me wrong. I have 4 nephews and one of them is old enough to hunt the youth season, I think that's great. He has hunted 2 years now and still needs a mentor or guardian sitting right there with him........that's what the purpose behind the whole youth season is suppose to be about. Getting kids into hunting is what it was designed to do.
I just think that that the privelage to hunt the youth season shouldn't be abused, and that's exactly what's happening in the situation that I described.

If you were using a 300 mag when you were 14 years old, I bet you were hunting by yourself also.....am I right? Did you need your daddy or a mentor sitting beside you to walk you through it?
I bet not......Point!

[DVSHUNTER]

I was by myself. I pointed that out in my post. He was not abusing the privelage in my opinion. he was using it to his advantage and there is nothing wrong with that.  He can only use it until he is 15 like you said, so why not. That is the age that the department says that the cutoff is. The point IS to give kids the advantage of a rifle before the rest of us get a chance to do so.  You are only young for so long and that is why we give kids a break.  I see where you are coming from, but i still say that your post sounded like jealously. "That's just not acceptable, and not fair to the rest of us."
  I'm sure that many other do agree with your post. I don't. I know of at least two kids that are 13 and still need daddy, as you refer to it, to take them out, so should they not be allowed the benifit because they didn't mature as fast as the others? I think you will say they do.  That is why the conservation set the age at 15. 15 regardless of skill level. regardless of ability, they only look at age.  It is not feasable to grant such privelages on an indivudal basis.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I also agree that the 14 year old should take advantage of the rule as it stands, I didn't mean that he shouldn't at all.....it's not his fault. I blame MDC for the rules they set forth, not the youth. If it's legal then they have every right to take full advantage of it, I just think that some of the department's rules are not to everyone's advantage and don't necessarily reflect the views of all hunters in the state.
This isn't the only issue that strikes a nerve with me, and I know they can't please everybody.......so I continue to do my best to work through them.
It's convienent how they will consult the hunters/trappers/fisherman of the state on some of the issues, but other ones aren't even open for discussion. That's just not sending the right message to the people, nor is it fair to all.

I don't blame the kids, not even for one second. I didn't intend for my message to come across that way......sorry for any confusion about that.

[DVSHUNTER]

I agree.

[Living_waters]

Chris this ought to make you want to be 15 again LOL
Havent seen pics of last weeks adult hunt yet but did hear they got 5 of the hogs I was after before the water pushed them out of the bow hunting areas.
 http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.299138410116102.87188.160539920642619&type=3

[Bowwild]

I was MDC's employee of the year in 1994. I retired from KY's wildlife agency.  MDC is one of the best wildlife agencies on the planet. Insurance companies and roadkill records absolutely do not dictate harvest objectives in Missouri.

[ChuckC]

Being a devils advocate. .

cut and pasted from Semo Hunter:
" ***It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.....*** "

So what is wrong with his genetics ?  Lack of huge horns ?  He sounds healthy as can be,  possessed of very proper tools for reproduction, you can even make the case that he has a definate survival advantage in that he cannot be shot (under the 4 point rule).  That. .  accoding to training, is a good genetic trait to have and his are winning genetics.  

oh wait. .  we want them there big horns.

It is much more complicated than that.
ChuckC

[SEMO_HUNTER]

It all depends on what your looking for in your deer herd Chuck, and everyone has different opinions. Your entitled to your own opinion just like I am mine.

Just as a side note, I've been out of this conversation for a long time with good reason. That reason is that you cannot reason with everybody, it's a losing proposition and I won't be dragged into it any further. So you all feel free to throw stones at each other, I'm out of it.

Good hunting to all of you.

[ChuckC]

There is no reasoning, just talking.  As I said, it is way more complicated than we are able to follow.

Lots of folks want big antlers.  Awesome.  I am not against that.  But big antlers are not of themselves good traits.  They may be indicators of good health, or not.  There are a ton of other traits that are very important too.  

And now here comes my biggest gripe. .  so, everybody is interested in removing the "lesser" buck's genes from the pool,  let that big one grow. . .  yup. .  and then they promptly shoot him !  

WTH !  

If we REALLY wanted to see big antlers, we would NOT be removing them big boys until they are in decline.  Let them breed (more than once or twice) and pass on them genes.
ChuckC

[TRAP]

amusing read to say the least.  Thanks Guys