Yellowstone is Dead

[Tater John]

Someone enlighten me... why is the Timber wolf not a native in Wyoming

Never mind...I looked at wikipedia

Rusty

[Sixby]

Wolves = Hunter Replacement Unit Now known as HRUs

[Ragnarok Forge]

For reference when elk herds balance with wolves the predators migrate to find  higher prey numbers.   Balance is good for the local herds and bad for the surrounding areas herd numbers.

[arrow flynn]

i live and hunt in californistan  cougar are protected here they have decimated the deer herd that and a big die off from tuberculoses means you can hunt hard into the deepest canyons for days and see and hear nothing .

[Tutanka]

To defend the wolf is like giving up your rights as a hunter.  Does the wolf create balance with the herds, sure I guess you could call it this.  But, the hunter has been the one used to maintain balance.  You think tags are hard to get now, wait until the wolf has decimated the herds to the point that no tags are available for those units.  Yellowstone is a perfect example of this, you can no longer apply for a draw tag in yellowstone in Montana.  This used to be a dream tag for the people that drew it.

The agenda is not to restore the wolf population, even the people pushing for the wolf could care less about the wolf population.  But, restore the wolf and replace the hunter.  It really doesn't matter if you like the wolf or not, what does matter is your rights as a hunter.  If we all don't get on the same page in supporting these rights it will be the wolf that leads the charge in taking our rights away from us.

[Deerson83]

I agree with the civil disobedience approach. As hunters we are the true conservationists here. I do have some experience with wolves -some personal and some through the herds of my friends being decimated in MT. A wolf may have to eat 365 days a year but that doesn't mean they pick clean what they kill. These repopulated wolves have decimated elk and deer in higher elevations and since moved on to my friends goats cows and horses. The wolves went into the barn and killed a few. None were eaten. These aren't the native wolves of the west. They range great and are much larger more aggressive Canadian species. They will not balance- they will relocate and improvise. I find it so amazing the level of disrespect that these so called conservationists continue to unknowingly have for these animals that they praise so highly. My buddy had no elk to hunt this year. When the wolves are starving and our game is gone who will they blame then. There is a gentle balance in nature that requires the respect that only a hunter would understand. Follow your instincts it's working for the wolves.

while I believe that they have intentionally over stocked the timber wolves,per agenda 21, I am not so sure about the feelings that they are singly responsible for the thinning game numbers.  There are other factors.  It has been found that certain GMO grains can render rats sterile in three generations, certain agriculture chemicals kill all the birds in an effort to control aphids, p0heasants too, range and land practices have changed, and there is aluminum showing up in soil that has never had aluminum before, so much so that there is GMO aluminum resistant crops coming out. A few wolves in a park is one thing, but propagating them everywhere is a violation of species transplanting, they are not from that region.

[KSdan]

bobman- Do you really think wolves stop killing and reproducing because there are fewer elk?  What about "zero" elk?  Ever heard of "livestock?"

[Tracks]

Oh boy, definitely time for the "flog-the-dead-horse" emoticon!


Unfortunately, this isn't a simple black-and-white issue...
No matter how bad anyone here wants it, wolves are not going to be removed from the ecosystem again... and they do generate $70 million a year in economic revenue in Yellowstone National Park...

That said, the presence of wolves does present a real problem that the typical environmentalist doesn't consider: Sure wolves and elk co-existed just fine for thousands of years, but that was BEFORE we humans dramatically changed plains/river bottom habitat.

All our towns, ranches, roads, trophy homes, etc. have pushed elk into the mountains where they are highly susceptible (unnaturally so) to predation by wolves, particularly in the winter.
 
This predation, COMBINED with other stresses such as motorized use of overwintering habitat, heavy late fall/ early winter hunting pressure in some areas, over grazing by cattle in some forests, etc. etc. has contributed to reduced elk populations in many areas. But you can't blame it entirely on the wolves.

For example, ranchers in the Madison Valley successfully lobbied HARD for season extensions and extra cow tags near Ennis, MT. Season after season now, "hunters" (I hate to call anyone who shoots an animal from the side of the highway a true hunter) from all over MT flood into the valley for that annual road hunting blood bath. In addition to nearly shooting each other in their fervor, these clowns mow down every spike, calf, and cow that steps on state land.

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked on my rant....

I guess my point is that wolves are not going to be exterminated again, so you might as well start working towards REALISTIC solutions like supporting population-management based wolf hunting seasons that stand a snowball's chance of holding up in court and, perhaps more importantly, protecting more high quality over-wintering range in valleys across the west so that elk have access to good graze and get some respite from predation as well as winter snows.  

Respectfully, Luca

[KSdan]

Luca- received respectfully. . .

But I am guessing that there are a lot of ranchers who beg to differ with you.  If wolves show up to take away their lively-hood, in time I will be willing to bet who "bites the dust" as it were.  

     

Dan

[Gentry]

Hey Luca I dont know who you are or where you think that you have seen this but you should get facts and not just talk.....

This is BS.....
For example, ranchers in the Madison Valley successfully lobbied HARD for season extensions and extra cow tags near Ennis, MT. Season after season now, "hunters" (I hate to call anyone who shoots an animal from the side of the highway a true hunter) from all over MT flood into the valley for that annual road hunting blood bath. In addition to nearly shooting each other in their fervor, these clowns mow down every spike, calf, and cow that steps on state land.

[Tracks]

I dunno, I've seen 30-40 vehicles parked along both the Jack Ck and the Bear Ck roads many times during the late hunt and when those elk cross the fence, no one seems to care too much about where they are aiming. That creekbed on the back side of that state square near Cameron seems to serve as a mass grave for unfortunate spikes as well... And I know of multiple cases down by the airport road where residents and other hunters have had to duck for cover because of over-zealous road hunters. Seems to me like the late hunt brings out the worst in "sportsmen."

Elk have a tough go in the winter anyway and hunting them from the roadside in Dec, Jan, and Feb seems awfully intrusive. Haven't you seen the elk all balled up close together, running for miles after being shot up on a state square? And the fetuses that come out of those cows killed in February are pretty far along... certainly can't be good for the population... particularly if that elk was killed with an antlerless tag. Two elk (and a fetus) per person per year is a lot of elk during a time when everyone is crying wolf.  
   
I agree that ranching is a tough way to make a living and I apologize if I didn't make that clear in my first post. Ranchers bear a huge share of the costs of all forms of public wildlife (and they have helped wildlife since before it became trendy to do so). Absolutely we sportsmen depend on them and must do our part to make sure that they have a fair shake.

Unfortunately, that ranch land is also the original winter range and the animals have to go somewhere when the snow gets deep. Seems to me that healthy elk are usually quite capable of evading wolves on the flats... they don't fair nearly as well in deep snow in the hills.  

All these issues are too complex for me to fully understand, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can, so thanks in advance for introducing me to ideas that I haven't yet considered.

[Montanawidower]

I'm far from a wolf "lover", or even "liker" but Luca makes sound points regarding habit loss, and "issues" with the elk herd.

Without starting WWIII, Luca's description of the late hunts is not too far off.  Sad to see it.  

For example, the old Gardner late hunt was equally a mess.  Those were management hunts that would sicken all but the most hardened hunters.  

The joke was "all you need is a pair of running shoes to tag an elk"... a firing line would establish at first light and volley dozens of rounds into the grazing herd. The elk would drop like redcoats in "The Patriot".  This was then followed by a sprint to claim a bull.  

Before you brand me a pinko...

The flip side to that is the drainage I hunted for years outside that park has a fraction of the elk it used to .  To the point I was forced to hunt elsewhere the last 5 seasons.

Also we take llama pack trips into the Yellowstone backcountry to fish.  We see NO elk or sign where we use to watch huge herds.  Pretty lame.  I'd be pissed if I flew in from Japan to see megafauna and saw the wasteland I see.  

Thirdly, for those asking about "Timber vs Grey" wolves.  The best analogy is an Alberta whitetail vs a Georgia whitetail.  Same species, drastically different body size.  

I've not heard of them being classified as a different species...yet.  Maybe a subspecies? That WOULD hopefully open the door to eradication.  

IMO hunters will never control wolves.  We need choppers with gunners and/or some specific poison.  Both of which bring a huge cost to the taxpayer... ironic.

[Gentry]

You guys need to quit talking about that crap..... Think before you speak you could be fueling the tree hugers I am sure they love to hear hunters say how bad this or that is. And 1 you can not shoot from a road in Montana it is illegal! 2 I am pretty sure you have not been able to kill spikes down there for like 15 years. branch antler bulls only. I dont know about Gardner but all most all late season managment hunts are antlerless tags (cows). 3 Montana had late season hunts for years and years and it never hurt the elk numbers it has only been sence the wolves have been brought back the numbers have gone way down. and so have the late season hunts and tags...  Dont blame hunters for there not being high numbers of animals in Yellowstone.......

[Mark Baker]

Well, here is a fact.  MT FWP commission just made the units near the park, permit areas.  Even though they are unlimited, you will have to burn your chance at getting a permit elsewhere to be able to hunt there.  That hurts us locals.  And in an area once known as the "elk capitol of the world", unbelievable.  

I'm neither a wolf lover or hater, my "emotions" fall somewhere in between, and it is indeed a complicated issue (elk management in MT).   But these wolves have decimated the premier herd of elk in this country, IMO.   Some cite other environmental factors....but I've watched, and time tells, that the northern herd, the "seed stock" for most of the elk herds across this country, have survived EVERYTHING thrown at them the mother nature can throw...except wolves.  It is the one factor, and the wolf haters are right about it.   Wolves may attract some tourists....but the last I remember, Yellowstone never had a problem doing that.  70 million bucks a year.....wolves are really only a fraction of that equation.   How about the livelihoods of those hardy folks that settled and made their livings in the Gardiner area for generations....literally hundred plus years....catering to elk hunters?   Gone.  

I could go on....and I stated, I don't hate the wolves, but we need to get to some serious management out west here to restore the greatness that we had 20 years ago.   It's not just the elk.....I never see a shiras moose anymore.    Deer in the riverbottoms clear up to my home in Livingston, are harrassed by them.  

The sooner we open up a "general" year-long wolf season, coupled with trapping opportunties, the better we will, and wolves in general, will be.  They are among the smartest critters out there, and they are here to stay.   It took the feds best trappers, back in the days when they could use poisons.....40 some years to erradicate them from Yellowstone.....to the "surprising" result of a burgeoning elk herd.  Hmmmm.    Modern management will never get rid of wolves, but will eliminate most of the problem ones, and help to keep the unchecked killing of our huntable herds of wildlife and problems with their encroachment on private lands in better shape.   The wolves are now here to stay....we need some better PR to try and fight the emotional "love" they get from the public so that we can put some sound management solutions in place.   My thoughts.

[Angus]

We have `em here in WA-at least in the northeastern parts, and now out around Winthrop/Twisp area, and the Teanaway drainage.  The ranchers in the Winthrop area are primarily cattle ranchers, and I know for a fact they don't call fish&game when there's a problem.  It's the old S.S.S., and good for them!  We've had at least 80 generations of non wolf-threatened wildlife, and anybody who claims they're "native" is blowing smoke.

[pruiter]

As  a person who has lived with wolves all my live, I still cant believe governments reintroduced wolves. To think the lower 48 is anything like northern canada and alaska has to be smoking some good hemp.

[Craig]

I have a question, What happens to the money that comes from us hunters to each state? If it ever comes to a day nothing to hunt and no money for these states and the Federal Gov. Where are they going to get the money to fund there wolf project and keep public land for public hunting. We as hunters who do we have to lobby for us in Washington? I know it's supposed to be the NRA, but are they.
Here in Pa we have Valley Forge National Park. There were too many deer on the property. The Feds had sharpe shooters shoot 1,000's of deer at night. At lease here the numbers could come back in time, no wolves.  Why couldn't they do this in other Federal Parks with other species. Sounds like the anti's are getting stronger in certain states.  We need a stronger hunting Org to fight for us country wide.

[will_hunt]

I live in a small community north of Idaho Falls. A month ago, we had three moose in the downtown area. Know why? They cannot inhabit native areas because of predation. Check the stats on the declining moose population in the Teton/Yellowstone ecosystem. The folks that initiated this madness knew that human encroachment combined with wolf reintroduction would KILL hunting. It has. Come to Idaho and blow an elk bugle. They run for cover. The elk have discovered that their voice is a dinner bell. We find elk dead all the time. Many times they are hamstrung, throats gnawed and that is it.  I am told young wolves do this as "sport". The condition is critical, period. Bighorn sheep and mountain goats are especially vulnerable. Long bodies and short legs mean that when snows force them down from the high country, they are easy targets. Idaho just closed Area 51 for goats. We all know why. If the wolf advocacy can tolerate the demise of sheep and goats--far more priceless creatures--we are done as hunters. Winter ranges are being compromised with human beings and the animals are up for slaughter by wolves. Twenty years hence and this situation WILL BE IRREVERSIBLE.

[papawoody]

Wolves are beautiful creatures. And they do have a place in the natural world.  But I do believe they need to be managed just like every other game species out there.  And im tired of hearing city folk Cry and whine about The need to protect them, When almost daily you hear them cry coyote.  These people want the wolves that bad, Maybe we could transplant a few into their neighborhood.