Foc etc.. vs basics?

[maxfit]

. I am fairly new to Trad but have been bowhunting with wheels for years. I have shot 6  170-220 lb deer with a compound and several others. I have had a pass trough on all except one. it went through the body into the far hip and hit the femoral artery. I was getting 260 fps out of my Hoyt with 100-125 grain heads. As a matter of fact i have blown them thru plywood, trees etc.. wit no problem. Wouldnt  a perfectly  spined ,tuned lighter arrow going faster out of a Trad bow say around 215 fps be plenty to zip thru any deer ? vs a heavier arrow going 180 fps? Isnt an arrow that shoots where you are looking with a sharp razor just as lethal on most game? It just seems to me that i do much better getting back to basics instead of adding all these other variables in. I am sure i havent got all of my thoughts thru but maybe someone can help me figure out what i am trying to say better?

[robslifts]

the only thing that a heavier arrow helps with is a marginal shot  (which most deer are taken with) the heavier the arrow the more likely the penetration will be better  as in if you hit a rib with a 375 grain arrow going 215fps  and a 550 grain arrow going 165fps   which one is more likely to break throught the rib and assure a good hit?  I am not arguing with you at all on this just giving you a hypothetical situation that happens all of the time.

how many times the deer you have shot have you exactly perfect the deer did not move, jump, or your release wasnt perfect and you got a marginal shot?  

the reason I ask this is you are expecting a perfect hit everytime and not expecting a marginal shot are you doing your best to not wound a deer..and  bring home the bacon and not lose a deer.  are you preparing for the unexpected??

[wtpops]

A VW going 40 mph as compaired to a Mack truck going 30 mph. Which one is going through the brick wall.  

[dan ferguson]

I think you also need to consider the bow and the grn weight that delivers the arrow straight to the target. If you get below 8 gpi it becomes hard on the bow. Most traditional bows were not designed to shoot the light arrow. hope this helps.

[Bill Carlsen]

The arrow must be flying straight in order to get the best performance regardless of its weight.

[redfish]

Your threads title mentioned foc. In my opinion, you need to choose the arrow and point weight that will have sufficient foc% before doing any serious tuning and save yourself later grief trying to solve arrow flight problems when you put the broadheads on.
I speak from experience and have owned a lot of arrows as a result.

[maxfit]

I am not saying to shoot an ultralight arrow.I think there should be a happy medium. I am saying that this whole foc thing, and single bevel etc.. seems a little overkill for deer sized creatures. Of course when hunting large game i am sure every thing becomes much more crucial. I am just airing my thoughts as i read, and talk to several bowyers. Not all are into this, i have to have a700 grain arrow or i wont hunt, mentality. The reason i ask is i just had a long discussion with a prominent bowyer who got me thinking. I guess the KIss method is what makes it easier to me.Now there is absolutely nothing wrong if that is what works for some. As far as a vw, vs mack truck into a brick wall i am not shooting arrows into one. But i get your point. However take a cast iron skillet and shoot a 45 cal 230 grain bullet vs a 158 grain 357 and see which one zips thru it while the other leaves a huge dent but doesnt penetrate. Now i have a few bows tuned perfectly with 500 grains total. I was about to start playing with the whole foc thing but i am hasitant. This is why i love this site. I get great info and debate. Thanks to all and keep it coming.

[maxfit]

Let me rephrase above i meant. bows tuned to the best right now of my ability, which is very limited.

[katman]

'It just seems to me that i do much better getting back to basics instead of adding all these other variables in'

I think what you think are basics is what you are comfortable with, changing from a very fast arrow not wanting to give up much speed, that is not meant as criticism. I believe there are those that think the heavy arrow and higher foc is basic, others light and less foc. Both do the job if put in the right place. You can go overboard either way.  

As for me I love to experiment and learn. A certain someone has me trying out light arrows right now.

[maxfit]

Katman and everyone else, i am not taking any of this discussion as criticism nor am i in any way trying to critisize anyone. I am taking in any and all info. Please keep it coming, it is well appreciated. Also what got me thinking was in Masters of the Barebow1  Darryl Quidort said he just screws in an appropriate wieght and cuts, till he gets good flight. I read Foxfire archery's ,Kellys tips on Broadhead tuning and that helped alot also.

[Bonebuster]

Being able to hit where you are looking with a sharp broadhead is indeed more important than FOC, and heavy weight arrows, ect. Good arrow placement, well tuned arrows, from 40 lbs or so and you will have no problem on deer sized game.

Through experience, I found that arrows that were on the heavy side, always performed better in hunting situations. The newer thinking of high FOC, only adds penetration. Through the years, my draw weight has remained the same, but my arrow weight has increased, as well as FOC.

Penetration was never a problem, but now it is rare for my arrow not to be in the ground at the site of a hit. Trajectory may suffer at longer ranges, but I have found myself looking at real life shots beyond twenty yards as being too far, so trajectory doesn`t come into the equation for me anymore.

Of all the recurves I have ever owned, I have never had one that did not shoot the best with "heavy" arrows.

A high FOC, isn`t really beyond basics, and it doesn`t add too many variables either. Its just newer basics. If you are using carbon arrows, you will probably find that they like high FOC.

I like a heavy arrow because it makes my bow shoot quietly, it absorbs as much energy from my bow as possible, and when I do hit an animal, I have confidence that I KNOW it will do what I want.

[redfish]

FOC is about arrow balance and arrow flight, not light or heavy arrow weight.
The higher the FOC% is, the farther forward the balance point, which gives the feathers more leverage and allows them to take more control of straightening out the arrow. It is that simple.
An arrow with too low FOC may shoot real good with a target point, but when a broadhead is put on, it may plane or hit elsewhere.

[Richie Nell]

Robslifts....
"hypothetical situation that happens all of the time."

Nice

[katman]

right on redfish, and high foc is also used to raise total arrow weight in light stiff shafts.

[khardrunner]

The question for most here is not "what is adequate" or "is it enough". Rather, for most it is "what is best". It's a matter of taking the equipment and getting the most out of it in respect for what we are shooting at.

[Dirty Bill]

Maxfit,I wouldn't get too excited about shooting through deer.It's really not that hard to do.

Elk or moose,or bear,and the story changes.  

[Jason R. Wesbrock]

Maxfit,

I think a lot of people overestimate what it takes to blow through a deer. Seriously, it's a whitetail deer -- pretty small in terms of "big game". If a person can't break ribs coming and going he/she has a serious problem somewhere.

My paternal grandfather and his friends deer hunted for decades with 45# recurves, Dacron strings and regular, well-tuned arrows. As a matter of fact, my gradnfather's favorite recrve pulled just 42# at his 26" draw length. With swagged 2016 arrows tipped with 3-blade cut-on-impact heads, he rarely ever kept an arrow in a deer. They just blew right on through. The last one of his hunting arrow I weighted was somewhere in the mid-400-grain range. FOC was probably 10% or less (125-grain head and no insert).

My personal hunting arrows weigh around 500 grains with 125-grain 2-blade heads and standard Flightmate inserts (20-grain glue-in type). I measured FOC a while back and they were around 13%. Speed range is 190-200 fps depending on the bow.

I started using that arrow setup in 2001 (broadheads have been a combo of 2-, 3- and 4-blade though). Over the past seven seasons I can't remember a single deer out of a few dozen that I didn't have complete penetration on, and that includes a few accidental spine hits and one buck shot throgh the off-side shoulder. As a mater of fact, one of those arrows went completely through a mature bull moose in 2006.

Long and short of it: don't overcomplicate things. Get it sharp, flying straight and make sure you have room in your freezer.

[maxfit]

Jason,
I guess my thinking isnt crazy afterall.

[wapiti]

"Long and short of it: don't overcomplicate things. Get it sharp, flying straight and make sure you have room in your freezer."

Outstanding Jason!