Need technical advice on tang

[gables]

On a hidden tang knife, how much of a shoulder drop is there from ricasso to tang? This would equate to the wall thickness of the handle at the guard. What is recommended?

[SourOwl]

Gabe- The amount of shoulder drop and the general shape of the tang depends upon the type of guard you going to use, and what material you're using for the handle.  Also the shaping of the ricasso to accept the guard and handle should be done prior to heat treating so the metal is soft enough to file on.
    There's no set measurement that I know of, other than to shape the tang with a slight taper (from the ricasso to the back) helping to make a proper fit as the guard slids up the tang to meet the ricasso.  The hidden tang should be about 3/4th the length of the handle.

to prepare the back side of the ricasso for the guard, most use a filing jig to ensure the filed cuts top, bottom and both sides of the tang  stay straight.  Filing about 1/32nd of an inch on both sides of the tang at the back of the ricasso allows a little "fudging" if necessary if the hole in the guard if slightly off.  When the guard "squares up" nicely to the ricasso it can be soldered or epoxied in place.  ( this info. originates from Joe Keeslar, ABS Master Smith, from his book "Handles and Guards")

[Lin Rhea]

If this might help, you can look and see what I generally do. There are some photos. Lin

  web page

[gables]

Thanks for the info. I have followed Lin's technique shown on the tutorial. I have a carbide faced filing jig and the soldering fixture/glue clamp much like he shows. I also have the handles and guards book by Keeslar. What I am having trouble picturing and accounting for is the design of the tang so that the handle lines flow- the width of the ricasso matches the width of the front of the handle behind the guard. On the first hidden tang that I did, the wall thickness of my handle was very thin up against the guard. Seems there is a balance of handle wall thickness and tang width that I am missing. I drew in my areas of concern on one of Lin's knives.

   

[Lin Rhea]

Now I see. Good illustration.

I flare the tang as it gets closer to the filed shoulders. This means that by the time the tang travels through the spacer area it has slimmed down enough that there is substance to the handle material top and bottom. The metal spacer material will stand up to the thin walls when wood might not. Can you follow what I'm saying? All of the differences we're talking about might not seem like enough to mess with, but you are very correct in taking them into account.  Lin

[gables]

Excellent- thanks. I think the light bulb just went off. So, the tang width on the front of the guard and/or spacer fits the slot snug, whereas the tang width on the handle side of the spacer/guard may not be filling in the slot because of the tapering tang. Additionally, the width/thickness of guards and spacers are functionally necessary to set the handle further back to account for the relationship of strength of wall thickness in metal versus wood.

[Lin Rhea]

Yes, exactly. However, I usually try to taper the slot in the guard about the same rate as the tang, but the main thing is that it's tight on the front and there is enough slack for it to square itself to the shoulders. The flaring, to me anyway, is just providing more strength to the tang where it needs it most.

    I also want the tang width to allow for ample material around the pins. In some cases I have seen, the tang was too small for the type and size pins the maker used and drilling the holes served to bisect the tang. That's not good.

By the way, other than adding a little flare, the tang in your illustration is just right to my eye. Lin

[kbaknife]

If this might be of any help to you, my tang is 'stepped' after it goes through the guard and/or spacer.
Mine has a gradual taper all the way to a threaded end, but if your tang stops short of full-length, there would be no need to taper as much.

 

 

 

[gables]

Thanks you all for the help. The willingness of the experienced smiths on this site to share knowledge is the foundation for the success of many beginners.