Pins?

[PZee]

Hi,

I'm new to knife making....

I bought a blade as a first go, and am going to put a yew handle on it. It's a full tang with holes for pins.

What I want to know, is, can I just glue the scales on to the side with epoxy and leave it plain without the pins, or do I have to put pins in the handle?

Thanks

Pete

[Ragnarok Forge]

Pins for sure.  Glue will fail under a torque loading.

[jaymoon]

You can also do hidden pins. Where the pins don't come all the way through the scales.

[Bobby Urban]

Not to discount the value of pins - or the nice look, but I will argue that modern epoxies, used correctly, will hold those handle scales as long as you own the knife.  That said, pins are good, simple insurance. JMO - Ilike pins but would not worry a bit about not using them with the right epoxy.
Bob Urban

[Jon Shade]

I certainly agree with Bobby on this one. Epoxies have come a long way, although I always seem to utilize pins on my knives.I like the look! Jon

[Lin Rhea]

No doubt epoxies are good, but I have to vote FOR the pins. Mechanical bond is the most sure thing. Both, when together, are almost indestructible.

[Rusty Snuffers]

Originally posted by Bobby Urban:
Not to discount the value of pins - or the nice look, but I will argue that modern epoxies, used correctly, will hold those handle scales as long as you own the knife.  That said, pins are good, simple insurance. JMO - Ilike pins but would not worry a bit about not using them with the right epoxy.
Bob Urban

Would you include Devcon 5 Minute Epoxy in the list of "good enough" to hold the scales together and the tang in place?  I'm putting a handle on a Helle Harding and the tang isn't very deep so I'm afraid there might not be a lot of metal once I drill the 3/16" hole for the pin.  

Also, when I "dig" the slots for the tang in either scale, do I want the fit really tight before the epoxy or do I want a tiny bit of play so that there's enough epoxy to ensure a good bond?  

Thanks,
Rusty

[Lin Rhea]

Rusty,
        The Helle blade's tang may require you to use a smaller pin ot no pin all together. You might consider roughing up the tang or putting some small notches back near the far end of the tang for the epoxy to grab.  

 I use a rule of thumb as a guide as far as epoxies go. The more I have to rely on epoxy the longer the set time needs to be. 5 minute epoxy is not very strong compared to 2 hour, etc. I address this decision in two way. I always use the best epoxy when I use epoxy, but I always use a mechanical bond, never relying on epoxy alone. Pins, fasteners, peined rod, etc.

A small knife will probably have a tang that is proportional to it, in other words, a small tang. A maker needs to use pins that are likewise propotional to the tang and not cut the tang in half while drilling the hole. That is common sense.

Here is the secret to a strong handle of any kind or design.

Tight joints and no movement.

People will argue all day long that a full tang handle is stronger than a hidden tang handle. I've tested both in a 90 degree bend and the hidden tang handle never cracked or gapped while the full tang popped a scale loose a little and cracked on one side. If a hidden tang knife is made right, it will be as strong. There is simple physical engineering involved in it's construction and the way the handle works within itself.  

In a nutshell, if you make full tang, use pins. If you make hidden tang, use pins of the right size or fasten the tang through the pommel and get the joints tight.

[tippit]

I do full tangs most of the time and I used to think epoxy/super glue was good enough even though I'd pin 95% of the time.  Eventually the non-pinned slabs will pop as the knives are used and getting wet.  

I now will sometimes peen a slab on without glue...but the most secure way (for me anyway) is to cut slots with my angle grinder on the tang and adding extra drill holes to allow more surface area for the the glue to grab.  Then pin or pin & peen.  

Even if you are using a pre-made knife blank, you can soften the tang without effecting the temper of the blade by putting the blade in wet sand and heating the tang to purple.  Then you will be able to add or enlarge the drilled pin holes plus cut slots easier.

Here is an example of what I do in cutting slots...tippit

 

[Rusty Snuffers]

Thanks guys.  I had read a few folks recommend the Devcon in another thread and when I checked Lowes' website, all I saw was the 5 Minute and 5 Minute gel.  I'll have to check around at the local hardware stores for the better stuff.

This'll be my first knife project, so I'm practicing with a couple pieces of scrap wood I had lying around in the shed.  The final handle will be "striped ebony" I got from knifekits.com after a quick google search.

As for the pins, I bought 3/16" since that was the smallest hidden bolts they had.  The tang is only 5/16" deep so I'm thinking I may just rough it up as Lin suggested and try epoxy.  Unfortunately, I don't have much of a shop for this and I'm anticipating spending a bit more to make this knife than I originally planned, just to make sure I do it right.  

[Ragnarok Forge]

Rusty S.

If your going to rely on epoxy, I would spend the money and get some Brownells Acra Glass.  I would not use a redily available two hour epoxy  I have tried most of the redily available ones and they just don't last.

Another thought would be slow cure Gorilla Glue, Super Glue - blue top.  It takes a while to cure.  I have taken a hammer to a knife to knock the scales off when I used this super glue.  I had to grind them off.  I have not used it long enough to know how it stands up in wet environments and hard use without pins.  But it is tough as nails and the scales won't pop loose under hammer strikes.

[Bobby Urban]

Rusty - you can use anything for pins.  I use different size coat hangers and welding rods for most of mine.  

Regarding epoxy, Wally World, HD and Lowes only carry the 5 minute stuff near my house but almost every hardware store has the 2 hour.  I like the two hour for durability and also the longer working time.  If you are setting multiple pins and have liners your 5min can start to get to hot.  That is a big frustration if you are half way through putting a handle together.

[Rusty Snuffers]

Once again, thanks for all the great info, Gang.

Another question regarding the pins: do they have to come all the way to the outside of the handle wood?  While I like the look of the larger pins on a full tang knife, I'm not crazy about seeing smaller ones in a large-ish handle.  Would it be beneficial to make really short pins in the tang and just drill shallow holes on the inside of the scales or is that not much better than epoxy alone?  It seems like anything that adds surface area for the epoxy to bond to would help to strengthen the handle and the pins would keep the handle from sliding around.  Does that make sense "in the real world"?

And regarding epoxy, browsing the websites of the "big stores" doesn't seem to yield much outside the quick set types, at least not in small amounts.  The only exception I see is the marine stuff from Locktite at 50 minute set time.  I think I'll do a walk-thru tomorrow on my lunch break of the local Ace near the office.  Maybe I'll have better luck there.

Rusty

[gudspelr]

I've spent some time messaging Lin back and forth about pins and here's what I learned from him-if I can get pins all the way through that want to keep the scales (by force inward, towards the tang), along with some good epoxy, that's what I want.  If you put the pins in like you're talking about, I think it would certainly help the handle material from shifting left/right and up/down, but it wouldn't give a significant amount of help with the "in", if that makes sense.

I sympathize with your questions, though.  I'm pretty new to this and struggle at times trying to get the look I want for the knife while doing the most possbile for structural strength.  If I've misunderstood Lin's comments to me, I hope he comes back and corrects me.  Good luck and remember to post pics   .

Jeremy

[Rusty Snuffers]

Thanks Jeremy.  The pin comments make complete sense.  I'm in no rush with this project as I'd rather do it well rather than fast.  I'm messing around with some pine I had lying around, just to get used to working with the wood and to practice with shaping and such before I go to "the good stuff".  It's nice to know there's so many experienced guys that frequent this forum that can help out with the process and give so much invaluable advice.

Rusty

[Doug Campbell]

With the Helle blade being what is considered a "hidden tang" knife and the tang only being 5/16" deep I sure wouldn't drill a very big hole thru it Rusty. Like Lin suggested I would rough up the tang and the meeting wood surfaces. Use one small 3/32 or 1/8" pin, that will secure the blade and I can't imagine your two pieces of wood coming apart with any good epoxy glue...

[Rusty Snuffers]

Question: What if the pins don't actually pass thru the tang?  Would it still help to strengthen the assembly simply to have the pins holding the scales together?  Better than epoxy alone, I'd expect...

Rusty

[Lin Rhea]

Absolutely.

[Rusty Snuffers]

Thanks Doug, Lin and everyone else.  Here's the plan: roughen up the tang to give the epoxy a bit more to bite on and pin the scales together, just under the tang to help keep things together.

I probably won't work on it much this week but I'll be sure to start a new thread and post pics when I can.

Rusty

[PZee]

Thank You for all the replies guys!

As always great help to a rookie!

I'll post some pics when I'm done

Pete