Need Clay Hardening and Hamon Advice

[gables]

I just heat treated my second blade using satanite as a clay backing. I normalized the blade with the clay on the blade then did the final heating and full quench. By the time I was on my fourth heating cycle, the clay was very fragile and chipping off. Should I normalize, then clay and then do my final heating before quench?

I have only tried etching once before using a 1:4 mix of ferric chloride and distilled water. On this new knife I am shooting for a grayed out blade with a revealed hamon much like you see on Karl's knives. What is recommended for my sanding sequence before and after etching? I also got some semichrome and never dull wadding polish that others have recommended for revealing a hamon.

[Lin Rhea]

I Thermocycle before I apply the clay and dry the clay in the oven about 300 for 30 minutes and then heat and quench.

[Kevin Evans]

I also thermocycle before I put satinite on,then apply and let dry for forever long it takes.Then heat in oven to 450 and quench.
I am going to show my first one maybe so you don't do what I did?I would call this dirty hamon LOL
finished blade to 600 grit(not good enough)
I mixed etching material at 50-50( Way to strong )
etched for 1 min. (way to long)
cleaned in water and 0000 steel wool(way to rough)
This is what I got
won't look this way next time    

[DANA HOLMAN]

That's what I'm doing wrong, I've had the same problem plus 5160 is hard to get a hamon

[mater]

Does the clay fall off when quenched and get your oil? If so, does this cause a problem?


                 Mark

[Lin Rhea]

You hope the clay will stay on through the quench. If the blade is clean when you apply the clay and it has dried before you heat it to quench, then it should stay on. You cant be rough with it or you'll knock it off. It has to be on the blade so it can do it's work.

[kbaknife]

Well, I don't know what I do different, but I sand my blade to 220. Put on the wet Satanite and go straight to the forge.
Dry it in front of the forge door a couple times to let the steam out of the clay. You need to do this gradually. If you get it TOO HOT while it's still wet, it cracks. Fractures.
And that cracking and fracturing sort of LIFTS it off the blade and it's no longer connected to the surface.
Just do it gradually. Takes all of 2 minutes.
Sort of bake it on.
When I get my blades out of quench, I swear, I have a hard time getting the clay OFF! I even have a Corian chisel I made to clean the blade off.
The other issue is that 9 out of 10 guys will put on waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much clay.
Considering that when we speak of hamons we are normally talking about the ultra shallow hardening blades of W1 and W2, you can get a nice hamon with no clay at all - just by manipulating heat.
So, with that in mind, why use clay that's 1/8" thick?
Not necessary.
I literally put my clay on with a paint brush. Has almost immmeasurable thickness.
So I think it's the thickness that is the problem with cracking and falling off.
Too much moisture within the thickness, and when it dries out it cracks.
Keep using less and less clay and see what happens.
A single 1 pound coffee can of Satanite should almost last a life time.

All that said, when talking about hamons, guys also go right to thinking that when they can't FIND the hamon, that there's something wrong with the clay procedure.
That's NOT usually the case.
You can't expose something that's not there.
And when trying to get the hamons that we all see, there's a couple things you need to do, or you simply won't get it.
Fast steel.  (Shallow hardening W1 or W2)
Fast quench. Parks 50.