Fast Flight Strings

[Corvus]

Would someone tell me what elements of a bow's construction
enable the use of a fast flight bowstring. Is there functionally that
much difference between dacron and fast flight?

 Thanks, Corvus

[Shaun]

Low stretch materials like Fast Flite, TS-1, and others can split the limbs of bows from the string knocks down either from the no give shock or from a sawing action of the string material. Tip overlays of glass, bone, antler, horn, etc will protect the limbs.

Function, 3-5 fps faster arrow, sometimes less hand shock and quieter - sometimes not. You can go all the way down to a 6 or 8 strand string of these materials because they are much stronger than B-50 but and pick up even more speed. But "piano wire" size strings and high speed arrows come with trade offs.

I use mostly TS-1 & FF on my self bows

[Dano]

Here's my take on it all. I use FF on all my selfbows, and longbows. My recurves that have phenolic tips as well. FF is abrasive and low creep, so it can be hard on the tips. From what I've seen not hard at all on selfbows with a hardwood overlay, but the tips on a recurve do more work and wear more. I wouldn't risk an old bow to FF, B50 is just fine for them. The benifits from FF are worth useing however, you gain a better shooting bow and about 8-9 fps.


What Shaun said  :D

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You can pad the string loops. BUt then you would lose speed.

Dano, Wouldn't FF still cut in to the nocks on a pin nock? Even if it has hardwood overlays?

[Dano]

Devil may care but I used FF on my last bow with no overlays.

[Bjorn]

I really like the way D97 works on my all my bows except the vintage ones-they get B50.
Functionally........D97 and the other low stretch materials can be faster and quieter on many bows.........you just have to try and see which material is better suited to your particular bow.

[DCM]

I have not seen abrasion or nock split on selfbows up to 70#, even using softer woods like hackberry, yew, elm.  

I think the nock split problem is more a function of the shape of the string groove than the type of string material.  Not sure where the abrasion issue comes from, other than antectdote, or perhaps some dirt or grit got under the string on an example or two.  Now I've seen some mild compression on really soft woods, but not abrasion.  For yew in particular I would either build up the loops to say 18 or 20 strands (for FF, stuff like 450+ is already pretty fat) or use a harder overly.  I have a glass bow (Bobby Lofton, RIP) with an elm overlay, which works perfectly.

I honestly cannot figure out the inherent reluctance to embrace the better material, other than inertia or fear of the unknown.  I have never even seen an example of abrasion or split out string grooves, other an 1 or 2 posted on the net over the course of a decade, and of those no indication was given when B50 or FF was used.  I wish folks would post pics of their adverse experiences, and the circumstances.  I tend to be a pretty vocal and forceful advocate, but it's sincere and based upon lots of positive experiences.  I'd hate to be wrong, but would love to be proven wrong.

Until then, I'm going to enjoy the much improved shooting manners, cast and longevity of modern, low-stretch and lower mass material.  Actually, since I'm a cheap bastid, I'm gonna continue to use regular old FF, which is cheaper by 1/2 than some of the other premium stuff.

Vintage bows, particularly those from the 70s with no overlays at all, just the glass backing and no string grooves per se, more like string "notches," definately require B50.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think I'll try FF on my maple bow I'm doing. Or would it be better on a red oak or walnut bow?

[LBR]

Padded loops won't make a noticeable difference in speed.  I use Dynaflight '97 on my selfbows, but I do have the tips reinforced--one with antler, one with horn.

I have seen two old bows with the tips literally sawn off by a non padded loop FF (original FF) string.  They weren't mine, so I couldn't say if there was another factor involved or not.  I've seen no noticeable wear and tear by Dynaflight '97, 450+, or 8125 on my personal bows.

The main benefits to me are much less stretch/creep, reduced hand shock, and increased durability.  I'd use Dynaflight if it was a bit slower, just because of these.

Chad

[Chad Sivertsen]

My experience mirrors Dano and DCM, I see no reason not to use the new materials on all my bows, excepting the old bows with no tip overlays.

I am an amateur bowyer, I'm sure my string grooves could be better along with tiller etc. All my selfbows and BBOs (50-65#) have FF type material,D97 is what is used on all my new bows now, I used 450+ plus for a while before that.

I put overlays on most of my bows because I like the looks but I have a 59" 55# rawhide backed Osage bow with no tip overlays. I did run the rawhide to the tips so I guess that could be considered an overlay. After thousands of shots none of my bows show any unusual wear in the string grooves.

My opinion on FF materials is the benefits such as durability, quietness, smoothness are worth the increased cost....which is the only negative thing I can say about the new materials.

Like DCM I am curious if anyone has first hand experience with string groove damage due to FF materials. Everytime the subject comes up we hear the horror stories but has anyone actually experienced that?

[Chad Sivertsen]

I was writing my comments while the other Chad (LBR) was posting his.

I forgot to mention speed, the factor most folks focus on when discussing this. I don't know if my bows shoot faster with D97, I suspect they do but don't really care, the other benefits are why I choose D97.

I agree with LBR that a few 6 or 7" long strands of extra material in the loops will not make a difference in speed.

[DCM]

What put me on to FF was a really long and heavy elb I was building, 76" ntn for 70# @ 29".  W/ B50 it was all I could do to brace the thing, because the string was like 1 1/2" shorter than a comparable FF so I had to bend heck out of it to get the string loop to the groove.  Then it would still stretch down so much it would slap the tar out of the back of my thumb on the shot, even braced 6 1/2" or higher.

LBR,

When you say "sawn" it sounds like abrasion, which might have taken many cycles to rub thru.  But to have a limb tip simply sheared off, which is a failure in the compression strenght, or tension or both of the material is a different thing.  Sheared, or split off clean I could see, like a dry fire with a narrow string, like cutting your and with a fishing line.

[Dano]

Most of the time guys fail to mention they don't keep their string loops and string grooves clean and free of dirt, which IMO is a major cause of these type of failures no matter what string material you choose.

[LBR]

That could have been the case David--that's just how it was described to me.  I saw the bows, but couldn't tell just how it happened.

Chad

[Tom Anderson]

Chad,
Would you mind describing the differences in the various "fast flight" string materials?  i.e. how they shoot, how they feel, noise, creep, etc..

[LBR]

I'll be happy to give my opinion, but I'm not technical type.  When something works, I stick with it--never have tried to break it down into the "why's" and "how's".

The materials I have the most experience with are Formula 8125, 450+, and Dynaflight '97.  

8125 is similar to Dynaflight--92% Dyneema (Dyna is 100% Dyneema)--I think the other 8% is Vectran, but I couldn't say for sure.  The big difference is it's a smaller diameter strand--you can make a smaller, lighter (faster)string with it--strand size is similar to original FF. It has low stretch and creep.  It's approximately 120# test per strand.

450+ is a larger diameter strand, similar to dacron.  It's a 70/30 blend of Dyneema and Vectran.  Probably has the absolute least stretch/creep of any material on the market, and has softer feel, but doesn't seem to be as durable, and I've had a few folks tell me they have had failures with low strand count 450+ strings.  It's approximately 155# test.

Dynaflight '97 is my personal favorite--low stretch/creep and very durable.  Size is in-between 8125 and 450+.  It's 100% Dyneema, approximately 125# test per strand.

Performance-wise, they are similar--with the same size/weight string, they are pretty much identical.  Which one is "best" depends on who you ask.  My first choice is Dynaflight '97, with 8125 running a close second.

I haven't tinkered with TS-Plus yet.  Most folks I've talked to say it's very quiet, but has a lot of initial stretch/creep.

Chad

[Tom Anderson]

Thanks, Chad.

[ALW]

I use Dacron on the few selfbows I've made mainly because it's cheaper to buy.  I twist up my own flemish strings.  Not to hijack this thread, but with the low stretch string material, do you have to alter your string jig any since the newer materials don't stretch?  Like making a fastflight string a little longer since it will have little appreciable stretch.  Again, sorry to get off the subject.  Thanks.

Aaron

[LBR]

Every material has it's own characteristics.  I work with 4 different materials, and I have to remember how to adjust for each one.  Sometimes I have to make adjustments depending on the length and/or number of strands.

Funny thing is, at least the way I make them, I have to go a bit longer with dacron (where I start the second loop) to get the right length vs. any of the FF type materials.  I believe that's due to the larger diameter--takes up more when twisting.

Chad