Deciding which limb is the lower (selfbows)

[Dano]

While at Cloverdale last month, I had a chance to visit with Gary Davis. During our visit a gentleman that was interested in building bows asked this question "how do you determine which limb will be the lower limb"? Gary proceeded to explain his procedure, During a bows first short stringing Gary uses a 1" brace height to see where the string lines up in the handle, an 1/8" either way from center will determine the lower and upper limbs. Any more than 1/8" you'll need to make some corrections. The key to his procedure is, most of us brace a bow to 3-5" and look down the length of the bow to see where the string lies, this is very inaccurate if you think about it, at a 1" brace even a semi bind man like myself can see where it lies. Gary and I thought this info should be shared, since Gary is puterhandicapted I volunteered. I hope I explained it well enough to understand.

[No-sage]

For me it's easy.... the lower limb is the shorter one.

I decide on which limb to make the lower limb before I start tillering.  I choose the limb with the best wood, least defects.

[Adam Keiper]

On stovepipe straight staves, that works well.  Gary's staves are quite clean and I'm sure that's why he follows that rule.  

But, I've found on bows that have a little limb twist or just some snake or a funky dogleg, the bowstring may bisect the handle quite differently at 6" than it does at 1" or even 4".  A string that's off the left at 1" may be off to the right at 6".  I'm really picky about getting a perfectly bisecting bowstring and do the final evaluation at a full brace, heat correcting and adjusting limb tip width from there.  

I also don't like to brace bows that low. (No less than almost 4", really.)  On those really low braces, I've found the bowstring tends to want to split the edge of the nocks longitudinally.  A 1" brace almost guarantees some damage, IMO.  Provided the tips are left wide, most damage can be rasped away as the bow is brought to full brace, but I've had a few that threatened the whole bow.  If you're going to do that, one trick I've found that helps is to round the back corners of the limb tip before bracing.

I use other criteria for determining top/bottom limbs, too, picking the cleaner limb for the bottom, shorter / stronger limb.  The L-R positioning of the bowstring can be adjusted.  The relative quality of the limbs cannot.

[Dano]

Adam, I realize there's more to it, I thought I would just bring up this method. I don't have the problem with nocks as you mentioned, I do tend to make them more permanent with the exception of overlays.

[Pat B]

A lot can be told on that first stringing. I usually go to 3" to 4". Sometimes I decide then which limb is which but many times, after shooting a new bow but before finishing I will flip it to decide which way it shoots better.
   I listen to what Gary has to say. His proof is in the pudding!

[Art B]

Most of Gary's bows are made from matched billets I believe so he has the option of using either limb however he chooses. But staves are another matter in my opinion.

I've never gotten one wrong yet by building my bows "as they stands in the tree". You can say what you want about any other method but the fact remains that the more resilient limb should go down. Just my opinion though.

ART B

[2treks]

I started making bows with Gary a longtime ago, And I would say that 1/3 to 1/2 of his stuff is from spliced billets. The cool thing about what Gary has shown over the years is that you can use "Less than perfect" wood and get a GREAT bow from it. The debate of upper and lower, longer shorter will rage on, fact is Both ways will end you up with a shooter. As Pat says "the proof is in the pudding". A fella needs to decide what suits him and then get after it. pretty simple to get some bend going and do a flip flop and have a top limb. or if you want a longer top then do that and make a go of it. cats need skining, and there is more than one way to do it.
Just my morning thoughts.
Chuck.

[Tom Leemans]

Keep in mind also that Gary takes the time to correct his staves (heat gun/caul, etc.) so they are as nice as possible. You can't always start with magic wood, but you can add some magic.  

[DCM]

Gary is sort of unique in the sense I beleive he enjoys showing as much or more than he does doing.  And showing is best shared with the less experienced, those who haven't already got set in their ways.  I'd be hard pressed to fault an experienced bowyer for some method I don't personally favor, but works good for him.  A newbie, who doesn't really appretiate the nuance perhaps, certainly is well served.  And even an experienced bowyer, a saavy one, can always learn something new.

I'm real anal about having the string bisect the bow along it's lenght, so I generally force the issue.

One of the aspects of selfbowyerin' I hold in high regard that a fella must, or should, make do with what he's got.  Sounds like that's what's behind Gary's way, but like others have said sometimes, well frequently, one single way isn't always the best in every context.  I'm sure Gary or any other bowyer with his experience would agree, sometimes you have to take everything into consideration and make out the best you can, even if it requires being a little creative.

When I make a bow, particularly one where these some feature which is most, I try to put the best wood in the most working part of each limb.  That frequently dictates which end is the lower limb.  And I almost never "switch" ends during construction.  Not that I don't leave myself some room for surprises, just use different methods, like leaving generous width and or lenght until I get it a string on it.  Then I can adjust and finalize the design when I see what's going on with one.

Gary can sure turn a pig's ear into a silk purse.

[John Scifres]

DCM's got it right.  Us older folks probably know what works for us.  This advice shared by Dano is a great technique.  I think the main point was the low brace height making it easier to really see where the string falls.  It is incredibly easy to skew the view when brace height is over a couple inches.  That's why every one of the bows I have ever made split the handle pefectly at my normal brace  

[Dano]

Very well put David, Gary spends a lot of time  between steaming and dry heat to get his bow staves perfect, which saves him time down the road with the customer.

John, you hit the nail on the head. Course like Adam said, a bow with twisted limbs will make this technique some what useless.

[2treks]

It is cause for so head scratchin when you watch Gary hold a bow at arms length and turn it just a bit and then flip it and tell the new guy    
"this is your top limb" It took a time or two for me to grab hold of the concept.Gary just smiled at me.
  Like Mr.Scifres said, once you settle on a way it may be hard to change, but for me, I like to have an option or two to work with. And after watching Gary for so long I have learned that the heat gun can be your friend. no matter what the top or bottom. Sure is fun to learn new stuff from the other guys around the country too. Chuck-