Help!! Martin Hunter surgery part II

[toolmaker]

I was on the verge of a breakthrough.  Dano was just about to impart some critical knowledge to this newbie.  I think he got distracted by someone with a smarter question.  Please, anyone,
take a look at my last post, disregard my spelling, and initiate me into boyering.

 

 

"So making tools became their trade; from stick and rocks, their weapons made." -I toolmaker

[razorback]

huh

[4est trekker]

I think Dano was absolutely right (like always   ) at the end of you other thread.  I shoot three under and use primitive self bows and pyramid board bows exclusively, neither of which are center shot.  I spend a lot of time trying to get proper arrow flight.  Yet before I start trying to "fix the bow," I consider these other aspects first (assuming tiller is correct on the bow, which seems to be true in your case.)  

1) Arrow Shaft Selection: You can't rely exclusively on a chart to prescribe the arrow you should be using.  There are just too many factors at work.  Guys who shoot non-center shot bows will be quick to tell you that spine weight, shaft weight, and arrow length are often a matter of trial and error.  Now, a center shot bow will obviously be more tolerant of variances in spine weight and arrow length, but if in fact you've got a mismatch between your bow and arrows, get yourself a test kit from 3riversarchery.com or somesuch.  The kits are cheap and will give you a range of shafting to try.

2) Brace Height: Again, I find this to be more of an issue on non-center shot bows, but there is a sweet spot here.  Many will agree that a slightly higher brace height is needed when shooting three under, as you are.  

3) Bow-Hand Grip:  This hand can do funny things to the bow, and in turn the arrow, if not kept in check.  Are you torquing this hand upon release?  Are you gripping the bow too tightly?  We could go on and on.  Be critical here, and search the shooter's forum for some tips if you think this may be the culprit.

4) Arrow Fletching: For me, discovering the correct fletching configuration has been critical in achieving stable arrow flight, even from gnarly old stick bows.  (In fact, I built my first character bow not too long ago and learned just as much about tuning an arrow than I did about working a funky stave.)  How long are your fletches?  Are they applied with a helix?  How far back or forward on the shaft are they?  Have you considered using longer fletches or going to a four-fletch design?

5) Cock Feather Placement:  I discovered awhile ago that for me, I get better arrow performance when I place the cock feather in.  Simple, cheap, and easy fix that puts the arrow on the mark and keeps the fletches in good shape.  Maybe that could help.

6) Release:  Do you shoot with a tab, glove, or fingers?  Do you use a deep or shallow hook?  Are you torquing and/or plucking the string upon release?  Are you getting a little bit of creep just before full draw?  Are you transferring the weight of the draw to your back muscles?  The questions could go on and on.

7)  Nock Point:  Don't be afraid to really experiment here, especially if shooting three under.  


So many easy and cheap variables to consider before making tool marks on your bow.  Good luck!

[Pennsyltuckey pete]

I am with trekker here.  I read the post last night and thought a lot about how to answer without coming across as a jerk.  (That is so easy for me to do)  In this situation I would point the finger at myself rather than the bow. There are more problems caused by release than most people realize.  I think it would amaze us how often we tune the bow/arrow combination to fit our short comings in grip, bow arm, release...

Before attacking the bow try this in addition to what trekker said.  

Take a look at your back elbow.  Is it above, even with, or below, the line of the arrow at full draw? If it is low bring it slightly above the the line drawn by the arrow. If it is way above bring it down to slightly above.

good luck

pete

[toolmaker]

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your responses.  I would go with the spine thing if my arrows were flipping sideways, but they're waggin up'n down.  Worse with one finger over.  I'll      

 

how to shoot fingers, and I strive for a clean release. I answered Dano's  and A.P.'s replies on the other thread, and advanced a theory.  My tiller measurements are there as well.  In the event that I can't cure this with a higher brace height and improvement in my form/release, and assuming my theory is correct, how might I correct a too strong lower limb.

Thanks again guys.  Don't pity me if I screw this up.  It's all in the name of science!

 

"No changes are permanent, but change is."  -Neal Peart

[toolmaker]

I got that last post mangled up.  Let me pick up where I interupted myself...

I'll Try a bit more brace height.  I'm a recent convert from compounds, but haven't completely forgotten how...

Mercy bocous`

 

 

"We will bury you from within." -Nikita Khruschev  
Sadly, he waqs right.

[Jason Scott]

I think what pete and trecker are saying is that if you are doing funny things with the string grip and bow hand at full draw and throughout release it could cause porpoising. The arrow could be slamming down on the shelf which makes it porpoise. Shooters that have this issue usually have to replace worn out feathers often and can see excessive wear marks on the shaft around the feather area. If this is the case the shooter may never find a good nocking point and it is impossible to tune arrows. Make sure you are not overdrawing. This is common with converts trying to eek out every fps they can get from trad. Overdrawing causes all the above problems.

[L. E. Carroll]

I'm dumb as a rock!! However, if you have a wheelie friend [gasp] who may have a mechanical release?  Perhaps trying that as a Test, may answer some of the "release questions"....by no means am I suggesting changing over to one, just trying one to see if your present arrows fly any differently.

Gene  

[toolmaker]

Jason,

You're telling me excactly what I need to hear, and what I don't want to hear.  Do you know if this is a symptom of being overbowed?  If so can conditioning and practice cure a bad release?  I don't have a coach to help me, and I frankly don't know what technique to employ to correct a crap release.  Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Thanks guys,

   
 

 

"Damn the torpedoes; full steam ahead!"

[WestTexan]

Toolmaker have you tried longer arras? To make a long story short I was having some problems close to what your having with my Bob Lee ...I knew it wasn't the bow and probably me and my worn out Arras.So I went by the Bob Lee store and they felt that with my draw and bow at 50# I needed 31 in Heritage 150s.Not to rule out anything I left the same string on and raised my string height up to 73/4 and wound up at 8 inches and my knock point at 3/8 above square....she's a wicked shooter again. Sounds like you may be high on your knock point. Just for grins roll your string a bit on release and see what happens if it's worse your probably doing it and not knowing. If I shoot shorter arras they tend to get wacky on me.You might also get someone else to shoot you bow and see if the same things are going on..just a thought....I use my oldest son.

[toolmaker]

Tex,

Also sounds like good advice.  I'll try all the recommendations one at a time, and maybe get sucker debugged before attemting any further surgery.

 

 

May the wind be always at your back... except when you're stillhunting.

[Jason Scott]

Over bowed can be a reason for bad form and may set you up for a long road to recovery or discourage you altogether. You are smart for taking it one step at a time. You must address one issue at a time when trying to get good arrow flight or you will get lost. It takes a lot of shots at the target. But, with bad form even taking one step at a time will not result well if you are not shooting the same way every time. It is hard to tell from here, you may shoot well and indeed may have a set up problem. To start with, what poundage is your bow, Your draw lenght with this trad bow and what was it with your compound, and can you hold it for a lenght of time without shaking too badly or colapsing? How long are your shooting sessions and how often. How long have you been shooting trad? I didn't shoot well for at least a couple thousand shots. One shot would be week, the next would porpoise and the then one would fly too strong. Until my muscle memory (form) and stamina improved which took months. The best thing that happened to me was joining the local archery club. That is where you can make progress with form and equipment fast. I was shooting a particular arrow that I thought was the stuff and one of the fellow members handed me one of his and told me to raise my back elbow and I saw immediate improvement. That sure was better than ordering a test kit and winging it alone in my back yard.

[toolmaker]

Jason,

She's 60# and I draw to 27 1/2".  I can hold her at full for ten or fifteen before my fingers start to creep.  I try to release as soon as I am at full draw and the sight picture feels right.  The fact is that I haven't put enough arrows down range to have that whole muscle memory thing.  I will consult with the pros at the range and flex her limbs a lot more.  Perhaps the only debugging I need is in my technique.  I wish I would have consulted with this forum before I decided to tinker with the bow.  Live and learn.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

 

"The enemy is now inside the gate."  -Glenn Beck