Sinew application gone bad?

[DV of WI]

Backed an osage bow on Thursday, put in the garrage rafters and checked on it today. Not Good. Not sure why but would like some direction if anyone has ideas on what to do next.
I heat treated the bow to put reflex in it last summer. Heat and oil. It had linear cracks running length of the bow and some off the side during the tiller phase. Applied TB3 and waited unitl now to put on the backing. Backing result. I was able to pull the strip from tip to tip ofo, all of it the TB3, hide glue and sinew. Perfect profile of the bow. Maybe I didn't clean with acetone well enough since it pulled the TB3 also. Are TB3 and hide glue not compatible?
If I clean the stave again, I also need to rough up the surface, can I apply hide glue and re-apply the strip I pulled as is? It has 3 layes of sinew and hide glue.Do Or do I just melt all of the hide glue and sinew that pulled off            ?

[walkabout]

alot of people are just using TB3 to sinew, im not sure though about the hide glue and TB3 compatibility. TB3 will break down with excess heat, around 150 degrees i think. if it were me i would saok the cracks full of TB3 or superglue,superglue being preferable but it may cause problems with the sinew sticking. then id  clean the sinew if possible and re-do it using TB3 watered down. the oil may be what caused the whole thing to not stick, in which case maybe cleaning again with acetone. if that doesnt work im not sure, never used oil on any bows yet to heat treat.

[DV of WI]

Walkabout:
How do I clean the sinew? Warm water? I would like to use again. alt of it happened to be Moose back sinew someone gave me about 15 years ago. I do still have plenty of deer and moose to complete a couple fo bows yet.

[walkabout]

basically you just want to remove the hide glue, which is done with water and heat.TB3 may break down in that process as well. im not sure specifics but im sure if you made/used the hide glue you know the recipe to make it liquid again. id help more but like i said i havent done it yet first hand only read how others do theirs.

[Silent Bear]

A long time ago when I was backing a bow this happend to me, I couldnt figure out why the sinew was pulling off of the bow, I was using hide glue that I make from sinew scraps which is stronger than most commercial glues. I would keep it frozen when not using it and would add small ammounts of water to help warming it up in a pot. The glue was getting weaker everytime I did this and finally got to the point where It would not bond with the sinew enough. I made a fresh batch and the problem was fixed. To reuse the sinew soak it in warm or normal temperature water for 2-3 hours and sand or rasp the back of the bow to get the glue off

[walkabout]

glad you could help silent bear i figured it was either the oil or bad hide glue which is why i reccomended using titebond3. good thing about TB3 too is that its waterproof when dry

[Art B]

Hide glue and TB3 are compatible. As Richard mentioned, probably the oil and heat that caused your problem. I haven't had much luck cleaning  oil off of bows with solvents after heating so I just apply straight heat anymore for bending. You could try washing the back of your bow down with Dawn dish detergent/water to remove the oil. Same with your sinew strip, but just with a with damp cloth. Then rough the side of the strip to be glued back down with rough sandpaper before regluing down with TB3. Add additional reflex to your bow if needed to compensate for the loss of any gained reflex from your first sinew job.

Also, you should consider varnishing the back of your bow before appling your sinew strip back down. The TB3 will adhere better to the varnish than the bare wood itself. Just make sure to knock th glaze off the varnish with fine sandpaper first.

And place your bow in a cool dry place like an air condition room for drying. Good luck. ART

[Silent Bear]

I have sinewed many osage bows and never had a problem with oil even though osage is pretty oily. Cleaning with acetone should be more than enough taking the oils off so I dont think that would be the problem. I have known of people using TB3 in sinewing bows but I dont really care for it as the hide glue works considerably better at bonding with the sinew. I would check the strength of your hide glue

[DV of WI]

After reading I think the glue is probably bad. This was the third time of heating and using. After I use the glue I will normally let it gel, cut into squares and let it dry on a string. This time though after I let it dry I put it in a zip lock and it get some mold on the edges.
If I was to use the TB3 do I heat it also like hide glue or just add water and apply to the bow?
I would assume I would also run the sinew through the glue before applying to the back of the bow? This was my third time backing and it actually looked pretty good. The bow is already sanded down and more acetone wiped. I have a some TB3 and will either use it tomorrow or order some more hide glue. As I am unemployed at the time I probably won't waid for new hide glue.
Thanks

[walkabout]

no need to heat the titebond, just water it down a little and soak your sinew in it, then squeeze out the excess water/glue and apply as you would normally. titebond breaks down with too much heat. it may be best to apply a thin coat of titebond to the back of the bow too first so the moisture doesnt soak too far into the wood. also it helps the sinew/titebond stick better. good luck and keep us posted on the results.

[DV of WI]

Well I went with the TB3. This is what I did,
First I sanded the strip of hide glue and sinew, then I moistened it using wet paper towels laid down on the belly side of the strip. Then I sized the bakc of the bow then I ddi the same to the strip of hide glue and sinew I then put them together. Due to the set back I am using will backing the hide glue and sinew would not stay down on the bow so I wrapped with gauze bandage to make sure good contact was made. After it dries I will have to either wrap the areas where the cracks run off the side or I will have to run some TB3 and sinew along the sides and over on the existing strip.

[Mike Yancey]

I would say that it wasn't the glue but that you put it in the rafters and it started to dry too fast. It started drying on the outside of the sinew real fast and pulled it from the back of the bow before the glue next to the back ever had a chance to dry to the back of the bow.
Mike

[DV of WI]

Mike you could be right. I actually allowed it to dry outside first and the humidity was low and there was a breese and I was really surprized at how quick it was drying before application two and three if glue and sinew. With in one hour the glue was completely dry to the touch. Wither way I will still need to get new hide glue. I ruined it anyway. Which is a whole different story. Hopefully the TB3 will do the job. How long should I wait to check the bow. It is inside now?

[Mike Yancey]

I would give it three weeks before you try to do anything with it.

[yamapup]

I had sucess using a Drano/water mix to remove the oil from osage. The water turns bright tellow in a hurry and there is absolutely no oil residue on the bow. I let the bow dry in the sun. After applying sinew, I put the bow inside (out of the sun) and near an air conditioning vent. The low humidity and cool air allowed the sinew to set up nicely. I left the bows inside for two to  three weeks. Works great. Pup

[DCoy]

I am agreement with Mike, and Silent Bear. I would soak in warm water and sort your valued sinew, degrease the back, and go at it again using HIDE GLUE since hide glue will retract with the drying sinew and give you the desired reflex. But cool dry for about 3 or 4 days and maybe up to a week if you live in a high humid area (Like Pup said), then you could move to warmer grounds to dry for a couple more weeks. That way it will have a chance to grab on. Make sure your hide glue is like pancake syrup and not too thin.  
Best of Luck.
Darren

[DV of WI]

The sinew and hide glue that I stripped off on the original application and re-glued with TB3 seems to be attached. The bow is holding its reflex well. The next step I will apply some sinew to the sides and an additional app over the back. Then let it dry a few weeks and start the tillering.