2 Staves (Pics) & Question RE Splitting

[Dublin Joe]

Ashe Juniper

 

Ashe Juniper debarked

 

(White?) Oak

 

Oak Rings

 

I harvested these two staves yesterday.  Does the oak look worth messing with?  There were a couple of branches coming out of it but I cut it anyway.

Also, the heartwood is off-center, with the rings larger on one side than the other.  The clear side of the stave has the smaller rings (darn it) so I need to ask about splitting.  Do I start my split to bisect the dot of heartwood, or try to bisect the overall diameter, or what?  This is my first time splitting a stave.

Each one is about 1 1/2 - 2 inches in diameter so if I need to limit them to one bow each I'll understand but if I can get two per I'd be grinning big.

Joel

[walkabout]

if i had the oak stave, i would probably cut a kerf in it right down the middle of the side that is the top in the picture there, and one on the very opposite side with a circular saw, then split it right down the middle. this would probably give you 2 staves, one with the branches, and one without. this method is spoke of in TBB, although im not sure which volume. juniper i have no idea, ive never used it, and dont know if you want heartwood or sapwood or a combination, so id leave it until someone else who knows better can help. with the oak you can also rough your staves out to dry, as long as you seal the back with shellac or something similar. by the way did you seal the ends? if not you should, so it doesnt split itself. good luck.

[Pat B]

Looking at the bark the juniper looks to have grown in a spiral. If that is the case the split will spiral also. If not too bad you should be able to remove the twist with heat and clamps. I can't tell if the oak grew in a spiral but a close look at the bark should tell you if it had. If it is not spiraled I would cut the oak stacve in half and clamp each half to a form so it doesn't get too much back set as it dries. The bark should peel off easily now so when you remove it seal the back as well as the ends.
  At the diameter you have it will be difficult to split either stave. It is liable to run off one side. Sawing through a spiraled stave will give you grain run offs.

[walkabout]

i agree there, if it spiraled then you may have some issues splitting. cutting will give you runoffs, but if you plan ahead you can decide where the good staves will be and the width you want and place your cuts to ensure that these areas will be left intact. even if it is spiraled, clamping it down will help with some of it at first, then heat treating later will really set it straight. white oak from what i hear is a very tough bow wood, although i believe from the bowyers bibles it is said to take a good deal of set easily. wide inner limbs would help to offset this though, something like a pyramid or flatbow where there is a lot of wood to handle the strain.

[Dublin Joe]

Thanks, guys.  I'm removing the bark from the oak now, and can't see any spiralling.  Is it obvious when it's there?

Each stave contains at least one bow so any extras are a bonus.  I've read that decrowning can be a good thing so I'll go either for a flatbow or at least a decrowned back to "lumberize" them a bit and even out the stresses.  How's that sound?

[walkabout]

generally i would leave the back as it is for a selfbow, im not sure about the juniper though. if you hold the stave at about a 70 degree angle and look down it you should be able to see the grain down the back pretty well in good light. if i were to consider messing with the back of a stave, it would be to trap it toward the belly, making the belly wider than the back to deal with compression.. a suggestion too, when roughing them out/ splitting them, try to get your waste off in as big of pieces as you can, so youll have some decent workable pieces left. you may just end up with enough for 2 more bows, if not more depending on the size of what you have. i wish i had done this with my hickory, and am kicking myself for it now.lol.

[Pat B]

I have never decrowned a stave or see a reason to decrown a stave. Make the belly as flat as possible and you wqill be fine. The wood under the bark is as good of a back as you will ever get.

[Dublin Joe]

It may well be Quercus stellata (Post oak) rather than white oak.  I wasn't sure when I labeled the photo but it's not red so that left white (for all I knew.)

I tried splitting a mulberry stave today for practice and didn't get lucky.  Can I forego splitting for the more time consuming cutting/rasping to get the flat belly or is there an inherent benefit to splitting?

[Pat B]

The benefit to splitting is the split will follow the grain of the stave(pole, tree). If the grain is straight you can cut with a saw as long as you follow the grain. Also, if you start your split in the center of the stave instead of at the end it will usually split straighter as you work out toward each end.

[walkabout]

you could rough the stave out with a hatchet after figuring out where the bow lies in it. with mine i figured out how the grain ran, then layed out my rough dimensions and used a saw to cut off about half of the waste, then got it to about 1 inch thick with an axe. just remember to leave more for your handle, and seal the end grain that is left there so it doesnt split.

[Dublin Joe]

I need to learn to read the bark to get an idea of the grain's twist.  The juniper's grain did a complete 180 over its length but the split stayed in the center.  It looked so straight, too.

The oak has maybe one orientation where I can miss the branches, and that leaves a pretty thin stave so I'm cutting my losses.

I appreciate the advice, and if you can say how to read the bark I'm all ears.

[walkabout]

i would peel the bark and read the grain on the log itself. what may seem like a thin stave really might be enough, at the thickest part of the limb, which is the tips, my hickory bow is about 1/2". the handle part is of course thicker, but as long as it lays along the same grain as the limbs you will be ok. really all you should need is about 2 inches wide, the length of the stave following the grain, and 3/4" thick down the limbs, then fading in to a 1 1/2" thick handle section.hopefully this can help some, remember too that even limbs can be worked around, although they are not the most ideal pieces.

[Dublin Joe]

Here's the post oak debarked.

 

[walkabout]

dont know if this will help, but its a few pictures i just snapped to help explain. this first one is the back of my next hickory stave, the wrinkle looking lines being the grain. the pencil line on the right is my centerline, which is drawn on one of the grain marks. it is the true center which i then layout my bow from. next one is the same stave, showing the grain lines, my center, as well as the lines which mark the width of my limbs. these ones happen to be 2 inches, which i think you could get close to this out of the oak stave      this one is a side view looking down the stave, it shows how thick i roughed it out, and the middle where the handle will be left thicker. did you peel the bark off the stave with a draw knife? if you did and it gouged the back then you would have to chase a ring after you allow the stave to dry. some bark is easier to read than others, like the juniper. it had lines that were twisted along the log that showed this. if my picture helps to elaborate and you can read the grain, then you will be able to lay your dimensions from the line you make as center, choosing a grain line that avoids the limbs/knots. to see how bad the grain twists just follow a grain line with your eye down the stave from one end to the center, then the same on the other end. personally i wouldnt be afraid of a 45 degree twist, but thats because im stubborn.lol hope this helps and doesnt just help to frustrate you, im simply trying to show instead of writing it, sometimes it is easier to understand.

[Pat B]

If you look at the pic of the juniper stave and follow the grain lines you can see how it twists counter clockwise around the stave. That twist in the bark is the same in the wood below. With some trees it shows up easily and on others you really have to study it.
  Years ago I cut a 12" diameter sassafras tree that was straight as an arrow and there were 3, 7' logs in the trunk. When I began to split it each stave had a 180 deg twist in it. Instead of counting my losses I made a pretty nice split rail fence instead of bows!   d;^)

[walkabout]

i didnt know sassafrass was any good for bows =\\ lol. i couldve nabbed a ton when i was in pennsylvania, but avoided it because i read it was too weak. oh well learned a few new things today.

[Dublin Joe]

Thanks, again.

I've looked at the photo of the juniper stave and seen what you saw.  There's a subtle, between the lines spiral.

That stave is history and the post oak has more limb complications (what are those called, the knots where limbs came out?) than I want to deal with so I'll simply go back for more of each but with a better eye.

When splitting from the middle I used a chisel to start, then another chisel, then my hatchet to open it all up.  How do you start from the middle?

I'm glad I went for the staves, and glad I posted because this was an educational day.

Thanks again.

Joel

[walkabout]

if you dont mind the little bit of extra work id suggest just planning out where the bow is and roughing it out with a hatchet, the stave in my pics i did just that.as far as splitting a full size log into staves, there are a few ways of doing it, you can just use chisels and/or wedges, or you can use a circular saw and cut kerfs with which to split the log, however this is tricky and you have to be sure you know where the bow lies in the stave. this method is spoke of in one of the bowyers bibles, although i cant remember which volume. ill pm you with it if i can figure it out.