Can we hash this out? neg vs pos tiller***Clarification

[Sixby]

I start by tillering to measurement, Then I go to work on timing the limbs and working the tiller to keep same. As to the balance , I like a bow that balances perfectly in the hand. Actually on my finger when laid in the deepest part of the grip. When a bow is tillered , timed and balanced it is like the man said a thing of great beauty.With glass you should be able to get geometry, tiller and balance. sometimes with wood there are more variables that have to be dealt with and geometry gives way to limb balance and tiller. However most of the bows i have seen you guys build are things of beauty.

God bless you all, Steve

[Roy from Pa]

Listen to Ole Art, cause I taught him everything he knows bout bow building:)

[Eric Krewson]

There is no measurement rule that will time your limbs be it positive or negative tiller. Each piece of wood is different, each stave has a different composition from bottom to top. Matched sister billets are more likely to be consistent but it is not a given.

I start with even tiller, shoot the bow, feel the hand shock, watch the arrow flight, run the nocking point up or down and change the position of my hand on the grip.

After the above tests and some things just don't have the "this is right" feel like I think they should, I go to 1/8" positive on the top limb and retest.

Some where along the line everything comes together, I know it and so will the bows future owner.

To make a great shooting bow you have to be an experienced traditional archer, you have to know where you are headed before you attempt the trip. This is not to say a beginner can't make a pretty good bow they will be very happy with but there is a dividing line between good and great.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

I didn't read the whole essay or the entire post thread, but what I have read seems like your trying to make it more complicated than it really is. Several members have given you the answers your looking for, but you seem like you have a hard time excepting it? Maybe I'm wrong.

You can effectively change the dynamics of your bow as in which limb pulls the most on nock direction as the arrow is leaving the bow simply by moving the arrow nock up or down the string. I go for a nice even tiller then place the center of the arrow about 1" to 1 1/2" above center of the bow, and try to keep the web between my thumb and index finger as close to actual center of the bow as possible.
On the same note you can also change the strength of one limb versus the other with hand placement. Which ties in with what others have already said about grip placement and grip style (high wrist, med wrist, low wrist) fulcrum or where you grip the bow has alot to do with how it's going to shoot no matter how you tiller it.
It's really that simple and it works, at least for me it does.

[SEMO_HUNTER]

Oooops, double post.  

[Living_waters]

I think Chris you said it right "it works for me". As eric said no 2 pieces of wood are the same, so unless some one is building a glass composite bow where all the materials are close in tolerance then there will be differences in not just building preferences but also materials.

When I begin to get over 20" draw on a self bow I mark my hand position, arrow rest and string nock. from that point on I pull directly from the nock point and I place a small fulcrum of wood directly under my hand pressure point at the center of my and let the bow pivot a little on that small fulcrum. What this does is allow me to watch the bow balance as it is drawn. A heavy limb one way or another the bow will tip, some times the bow quivers as it is drawn showing there are spots during the draw curve that favor one limb or another. MY goal is to get the bow to start and end balanced, this may not be text book but I have found even with a heavy wood like osage I don't have the hand shock that others do and the bow doesn't torque when I hit to point to quit hanging on to the string.  Another thing this does for me is it allows me to snap shoot and from my experience every second you hold a self bow at full draw the slower the bow recovers causing a drop in arrow speed, causing fluctuation in ones shot placement. I need all the help I can get when it comes to shot placement LOL.

In another post I was trying to discuss the real problem with the lower shorter limb of an asymmetrical bow bending more. By building the way I do they almost always come out that way. Even if there is no text book documentation to really support anything absolute, What I found to work works "at least for me".

When traditional archery becomes so mechanical it does not allow personal expression then we might as well regress to shooting the wheelies. Like a fine sports car those that look on with wonder need to be able to see a bow and say "that is a Semo bow".

[SEMO_HUNTER]

We both build SEMO bows locationally speaking.  

[k-hat]

Just wanted to clear some things up, then i'll lay this to rest.  Here's what brought this whole question up for me:

1.  Read Dean Torges' article about tillering presenting the idea of negative tiller.  Made sense what he was sayin, and seemed contradictory to what a lot of people were doing.  i basically got all confrused at this point.

2.  Tested the seesaw assumptions and found them erroneous (ie:  top limb does NOT receive greater force than bottom limb as Deans example states)

3.  Had an aha moment where it all came together.  Then i presented another really LONG post to explain WHY many bowyers use positive tiller, etc. to remedy the lower limb bending more on most bows.  At this point, I was in AGREEMENT with Roy, Art, Semo, etc as to how the bow should be tillered (and still am!).  

I was really just hoping to shed some light on the mechanics of why we're doing what we do so other knuckleheads like me asking the same questions can just read it and not start a big online debate  

I took y'alls advice by the way as i finished up my last two bows, and they came out great. As you can see from those, I really do prefer to keep things simple and elegant    

I really do appreciate all the input and experiences y'all gave to hopefully help future newbies understand a little better.  Nuff said.