FF compatibility?

[Lamey]

Fast flight compatibility has always perplexed me a bit.  Some bowyers add layers of phenolic, G10 or other super tough material.... some just add a few layers of wood... even a few simply add a super thin tip wedge.

My specific question is if the tips in the pics below would be considered by most to be FF safe?? If not I will likely remove them and replace with phenolic, BUT would rather just leave as is, if the tips are FF safe.


There are 2 layers of wood on the tips, the top layer thicker and likely Rosewood.

 

 

[NYArrow]

I've researched this topic as well. It's not completely clear to me at this point. Like you there are mixed results in terms of "acceptable" materials for tips. Even still there are two things to consider tip strength and limb strength. Adding a hardened tip does not always mean it's FF ready. Your bow must be designed in such a way that having less forgiveness in a string is safe. ie. Dacron is very elastic while FF is like shooting with piano string. Just something to consider.

[Sam Harper]

The weight of the bow is a factor, too.  The heavier the bow, the harder the tips need to be if you're going to use fast flight.

I just don't use fast flight at all.  It's not worth it to me.  They cost more, they make more noise, they add stress to the bow, and when I shoot them, I can't really tell the difference in speed from a dacron string.

[Lamey]

Thanks all,  ive always heard the noise factor, but ive not noticed any difference in noise from Dacron to FF.  I do notice a different "feel" with Dacron.

Think I will just keep this bow as is, and shoot Dacron.  Its an older "Fox" Longbow made by Ron Fox.  I called Ron King, and he advised to use Dacron. Was considering putting phenolic tips on it, ive done a few older bows in the past but this one is gonna stay as is.  Just too nice to mess with.

[LittleBen]

My take is alot more sceptical than most. I think the tips breaking off is as much a myth as anything else. Like an old wives tale of bow making. I've used FF on every bow I've made ( all wood) without a single problem including several eastern red cedar bows without overlays, just pin nocks and still no problem.

These are bows not space ships. What kind of design considerations are we really talking about. All there is is tip width, thickness, and overlay.

I've yet to hear anyone say "I put fast flight on my bow and the tip broke off", its usually someone saying "I heard if I put fast flight on my bow it might break the tip off".

With that said, Dacron is cheap and shoots fine so why screw with a good thing.

Lastly I never really noticed more noise with fast flight or Dacron. I think it's all extremely dependent on your precise setup and silencers.

[bamboo]

Originally posted by LittleBen:
My take is alot more sceptical than most. I think the tips breaking off is as much a myth as anything else. Like an old wives tale of bow making. I've used FF on every bow I've made ( all wood) without a single problem including several eastern red cedar bows without overlays, just pin nocks and still no problem.

These are bows not space ships. What kind of design considerations are we really talking about. All there is is tip width, thickness, and overlay.

I've yet to hear anyone say "I put fast flight on my bow and the tip broke off", its usually someone saying "I heard if I put fast flight on my bow it might break the tip off".

With that said, Dacron is cheap and shoots fine so why screw with a good thing.

Lastly I never really noticed more noise with fast flight or Dacron. I think it's all extremely dependent on your precise setup and silencers.

width-thickness-and overlay--add to that [IMO most important] shape --a very teardrop round profile is important--the limb tip picture looks fine to me [nice round profile]
IMO longbows are the least susceptible to the "damaging forces" of low stretch strings
the only damage I've ever personally witnessed was a very high poundage recurve that was shot a high number of shot with 7-8 gpp arrows
my experience has been only favorable with low stretch strings--with IMO improvements in performance-sound-and most of all shot feel
if it was my bow I would not even hesitate to put a 450+ on it and take it hunting

[PEARL DRUMS]

I use D10,D97 and 452X fast flight on every self bow or laminated wood bow I make. 6-10 strands, 45-60#. Some I use horn, antler or wood for single layer overlays. Just like your picture. I have a few osage bows with no overlays.

[TroutGuide]

I wonder this too as I have an old Shakespeare super necedah that I a playing with strings on now. Triple lam overlay but only wood. I have never seen a reliable description of why it is really a problem, just theories... but I will try it after season just in case. LOL.

[Lamey]

I also wonder if it has a lot to do with the energy of the bow, i.e. tip material would be less critical on a D type bow then a highly reflexed/high energy limb design bow?

[PEARL DRUMS]

Here are my personal findings/feelings on FF. Its all wives tales that gets past on from bowyer/hunter to bowyer/hunter. Im not sure how much longer I have to use FF or how many other different types of bows I have to try it on with no ill effects before I can consider my opinion quite accurate?

If a bow tip is going to explode or delam, its going to no matter what string you use. Again, that's my opinion.

[bamboo]

bows break !![thank goodness not too often!]i'd be willing to bet as many OR more have broken before FF was ever available
I wonder if the same controversy surrounded the change from linen to Dacron??
MY low stretch string material experiences have only been favorable

[D.Ellis]

I find the high performance materials make a quieter string.......used them on several very slim tipped selfbow and laminate bows......with and without overlays......never had an issue yet, unless faster arrow flight, less shock and vibration, and less wrist slap are objectionable to you.  
Darcy  

[LittleBen]

Originally posted by PEARL DRUMS:
Here are my personal findings/feelings on FF. Its all wives tales that gets past on from bowyer/hunter to bowyer/hunter. Im not sure how much longer I have to use FF or how many other different types of bows I have to try it on with no ill effects before I can consider my opinion quite accurate?

If a bow tip is going to explode or delam, its going to no matter what string you use. Again, that's my opinion.

My thoughts exactly. All my homemade bows get FF.

I do own a couple vintage recurves that I use dacron on ... mainly cause thats what they came with and havent' replaced the strings yet. Still not sure if I'm going to have the nuts to try FF. I know it's fine but I'm a wimp I guess

[Crooked Stic]

Already said a nice rounded teardroped shaped string groove is very important. The phenolic or whatever other reinforcement you use is good insurance and piece of mind.

[rainman]

Linen strings have way less stretch than Dacron and people used them for over 800 years.  Dacron stretches to much for me at the shot and vibrates, all I use is fast flight.

[LittleBen]

So I finally broke a strand in the B50 string on my '69 york thunderbolt.

Decided I needed a string in short order wince I'm oging on a hunting trip this weekend.

Twisted up a flemish 8125 string with 14 strands.

Went and shot it today, retuned the bow etc. Tuned to the same arrows as the b-50 string at 1" lower brace height, currently at 7.5".

Anyway, it took about 10 shots until it was obvious that the string was damaging the maple and walnut overlays on the tips. The string wouldn't sit in the grooves the same way as the dacron string.

Filed off the tip overlays leaving about 1/32" of maple above the glass and I'm currently gluing on 2x 1/16" thick black phenolic which I will shape this evening.

Anyway, so much for thinking FF would cause no problems. I don;t think it's going to be an iussue long term, but those string grooves really need to be well done or the FF will jjst attack them.