Extreme FOC and aluminum Hunting arrows?

[wingnut]

Dang that Dr. Ashby.  I've been thinking way too much since reading the latest report.  Last year both Jason and I went to 2016 shafts for our hunting rigs.  With the aluminum inserts, adapters and WW broadheads.  We were very happy with the flight and killing power of the combo.

Now I'm thinking of moving more weight to the front.  If I add the 100 gr. steel adapter and brass insert, how much will that move my FOC and how much will it weaken the spine of the shaft?

Will I need to go to a stiffer arrow to get the same flight as my 2016 normal balance?

Mike

[Lost Arra]

>>We were very happy with the flight and killing power of the combo.<<

Why change anything?

[George D. Stout]

Mike, I have 2016's that fly superbly from my 52# recurve.  I have one of them that I put a 100 grain steel broadhead insert on, plus a 125 field point, and it still flies great from this bow.  Mine are cut to 28" back of point, so they are probably borderline stiff with the 125 grain points and insert, but they fly good.  If you have a longer arrow it may weaken the spine too much, but you really need to try it to be sure.
I'm shooting dacron on the old recurve so that could make a difference as well.  I should add that I like them the way they are; they come out to 487 grains with a Bear Razorhead on them and have plenty of punch for N.A. game.

[David Mitchell]

Yea, Mike, why change unless you are hunting cape buffalo! I don't have any reason to disagree with Dr. Ashby, but have never needed all that fire power.  Neither did Fred Bear evidently or Howard Hill except on elephants, and I don't currently have any hunts planned for pachyderms!  It sure won't hurt anything, but I prefer to think in terms of whether I really need it and what has been working for me.

[wingnut]

David,

Well that's a pretty good argument as long as you are still shooting the same bow you did 10 yrs ago.  I have a thirst for knowledge and it intrigues me that the penetration goes up that much with the extreme FOC.  I do hunt elk and moose and some large pigs that could use all the penetration I can muster.  Especially since my shoulder doesn't allow me to shoot the heavier weights I did a few years back.

Believe me Fred Bear was an individual that hunted with the best thing that was available.  He brought fiberglass into an all wood world and changed bows forever.  If he had the data for extreme FOC, he would have used it and probably figured a way to make a profit at it.  LOL

Mike

[joe skipp]

Why change...ridiculous. Stay with what works best.

[BobCo 1965]

It is real tough getting good arrow flight with extreme FOC and aluminums.

[wingnut]

Since starting this thread this am, I have talked with a couple of folks that recommended carbon shafts.  I have a few here in a box somewhere and will experiment a bit.

Joe,

I'm looking for a better arrow combo.  If it doesn't work out I'm out nothing and can go back to my old setup.  If it works then I have a setup that will penetrate large game better with the limits of my poundage.  That is a very good thing.

Mike

[BobCo 1965]

I think you'll be better off with carbon as well.

[jeff / sc]

Try em with a 100 or 125 gr steel insert in the WW. Think my 2016'are cut to 28" and they shoot fine from my 47 - 50 lb bows...2018's also work, but I like them a little longer. (Note..fast flight and center shot)  Haven't measured the FOC, but not having any flight problems.  I've had a lot less problem tuning 2016 or 2018 than the CX 150's I'm using now....which also makes me wonder if carbon arrow are all they are cracked up to be.  Should also note that a 2018 and cx150 both weighting the same...both penatrate my dirt pile the same.

[George D. Stout]

Frank Eicholz was the father of modern fiberglass and used it on bows prior to Bear.  I'm a big Papa Bear fan, but he was not the first to use fiberglass backing.

Papa probably already had fooled with heavy frontal weights; he was an experimenter as well as designer.  He also knew what worked and steadfastly stayed with his Kodiak and Custom Kodiak T/D, cut away at the shelf to shoot off the knuckle.  He also settled on aluminum arrows at approximately 9 grains per pound.

Nothing is new in this sport....including the experimenting with frontal weights. It was played  with quite a lot in the past; matter of fact you could buy ten grain weight washers to add behind your screw-in heads, back in the 70's.  It has became popular lately, only because carbon shafting is so stiff and it is required to get proper arrow spine, and it works well with stiff shafting such as carbon fiber.

All of this experimentation is fun....such as Dr. Ashby's tests on ultra big game.  We do need to have sense to remember that what has worked in the past, will still work extremely well.  Do your own experiments and enjoy the process...you may well be delighted with the way things work, you sure don't need us to sign-off on something that works for you 8^).

[laddy]

I had big plans to do some serious carbon testing this spring, but a fall on the ice that has taken my wrist out of commission for the next month or two has convinced me that I am staying with 1918s with glue in bh adopters for the warm days and wood for the cold.  i usually get pass throughs anyway, I don't no what all the fuss is about, but I am curious enough.  Now I cannot find my letters from Frank Eicholz, they are with my two letters from Howard Hill and one from Fred Bear.  this just got serious.

[wingnut]

George,

Didn't mean to say that Fred Bear invented fiberglass, he just patented it in bows.  I know from conversations with Glen St. Charles that he was messing with it before Fred and possibly was the one that turned him on to it.  My point was that they didn't stay with wood bows because that's what had been done before.  They went forward and tried things that are now our "traditional" standards.

Carbon with extreme FOC might be a fad or it could be what the next generation sees as standard.  I just don't see not trying something because the old way works.

The new old way might be even better.

Mike

[laddy]

Frank told me that he was the first.  He also said that he pretty much got everything he came up with stolen from him through his business partners.