osage selfbow limitations?

[grouse11]

As some know I acquired a large load of osage to begin my first selfbow. I picked a prime stave today and split a piggyback stave off of it the main stave is now beautiful however the piggyback stave is not perfect. I think I can salvage 52" off of it. I know the ideal situation is to turn it into a billet however I was wondering if this could be turned into a shootable bow?

My idea was a bendy handle recurve with a 26" draw. Is this doable or would this be too much for this wood? Would a sinew backing make it possible? Just throwing out ideas because I am excited to start working on this stuff!

[KenH]

Sinew does not adhere well to osage, AFAIK.  And you'd need to make your own fish-bladder glue, as hide glue isn't particularly good as a sinew glue.  No modern glues work well with sinew.

[Pat B]

I've not had any problem getting hide/sinew on osage. It works very well if you prep the the bow and sinew well first.
A 52" sinew backed osage would make a nice shooter for a 26" draw. I would kick the tips a bit or maybe short recurved tips would help with the longer draw. You'll want as much working limb as possible.

[mwosborn]

I have seen lots of "discussions" on modern glue vs. hide glue vs. fish bladder glue and sinew.  Many nice shooting bows have been made with titebond and sinew.  I prefer hide glue and have had good success.  I have not tried fish bladder.

Several build alongs on "PA" and on here using sinew.  Just do a quick search and you should be able to find them.  Short, bendy handle, sinew backed sounds good.

[yard dog]

I used hide glue to sinew the back of my osage static.... in 2001..... It's all still perfect... Still pulls 54#....

[mikkekeswick]

The only difference between fish bladder glue and the other collagen glues is its slower gel time. There are other differences (that don't matter in this case!) but any collagen glue that gels within 1 hour of being taken off the heat will be more than strong enough.
It is worthwhile degreasing osage with a lye solution but you will never get all the oils out. Most effective way to glue oily woods with collagen glues is to size properly with a few coats of 5% glue and warm the wood before coats.
titebond will stick sinewe down very well however you won't get any contraction and are thus losing potential energy storage.

[Bowjunkie]

I've never had an issue with hide glue and sinew adhering to osage. I use a toothing plane blade to prep the surface and size it like Mike said.

[PEARL DRUMS]

Hide glue, sinew and osage is an amazing combo and has been proven for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. If you want to make a 52" osage bow that pulls 26" you don't need sinew, but it wont hurt a thing if you added a few courses. Like Pat said, add a bit of tip reflex to keep the string angle down and reduce the finger pinch you may feel.

[grouse11]

Thank you all for all the info! Sounds like I dont necessarily need to go with sinew but I will think that over. If I would, would it be smart to tiller out and get to a manageable weight like 35-40. Then add sinew to gain the poundage back? In not sure how much draw weight sinew will add.

[PEARL DRUMS]

In this case I would tiller the bow out to about 16-18" never exceeding the target draw weight. Then add sinew and tiller your way down to 26" and the exact draw weight you want. I prefer to have the limbs even when I add sinew, that way the reflex and limb shape is the same side to side. If one limb is stiffer than the other it wont take as much reflex and the bow wont be even after curing.

[Pat B]

Tiller your bow out to at least 1/2 the intended draw length, making sure that the tiller is even with no twists and on track to make the ultimate draw weight. Now you can add the sinew, reverse brace the bow so you aid in the reflex and let it cure completely. As long as the tiller is still good reduce the extra weight achieved from adding the sinew to the draw weight you are shooting for.
 Don't tiller out under weight and try to achieve weight with the sinew.

[scrub-buster]

Originally posted by KenH:
Sinew does not adhere well to osage, AFAIK.  And you'd need to make your own fish-bladder glue, as hide glue isn't particularly good as a sinew glue.  No modern glues work well with sinew.

Well, I better tell all of my sinew backed osage bows that they should self destruct       And hide glue doesn't work well with sinew???  Really?  If you have had failures with osage, sinew, and hide glue I  would say the problem is with how you applied it, and not with the ingredients.  That is a great combination that has proven itself throughout history.

[John Scifres]

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=011386;p=1#000000

[George Tsoukalas]

You are getting advice from some of the top bowyers in the country.

They may have missed the part where you said this was your first bow?

My advice (just a guy having fun) is get a better stave to learn on.

A nice stave about 64" long backed with rawhide (easier than sinew) will do well for you. I would not recurve it either.

Leave the hard stuff for later.    

Sorry to disagree.

Jawge

[grouse11]

Jawge,

Oh I totally agree! In another thread I chronicled the adventures of cutting down my first osage tree. Out of that I was avle to split 21 staves. Out of those staves six have a nice piggyback stave and four can be split into 3-4 staves with some care. All in all I have close to 35 workable staves and some are very nice. Yesterday I took the bark and sapwood off of one that is straight for about 66" with just a slight twist at one end. That is sealed and drying. I am going to start on that one first. The short stave was actually a piggyback stave of that one so I sealed the back of that one.

Anyway, you are all getting me really excited to start this and john that is an awesome bow!

The plan for Saturday is to pick out another 2-3 staves including some of the larger ones, debark and de-sapwood, get to rough blank dimensions, seal and let dry. Im Hoping that will shorten the drying time some and I can start my first in a month or so!

[yard dog]

When in doubt, listen to Jawge....  

[Eric Krewson]

Go down to Walmart, look in the baking section for Knox gelatin, it is hide glue in little packs. I have used it successfully with sinew for years.

[yard dog]

Originally posted by Eric Krewson:
Go down to Walmart, look in the baking section for Knox gelatin, it is hide glue in little packs. I have used it successfully with sinew for years.

That's what I use....

[mikkekeswick]

Gelatin is plenty strong but it gels very quickly. At least the stuff here in England does.

[ChuckC]

Or....just make a smaller, lighter bow for a child from the smaller stave.