MAKE HEAVY ARROWS HEAVIER

[Nantahala Nut]

Personally my goal is to have a hunting weight arrow (11 gppish) that flies as flat as possible out to 20 yards. A big old rainbow trajectory is gonna be hard to hunt with. Better have absolutely clear shooting lanes.

[last arrow]

Lets answer the posters questions, not try to talk him out of it. We don't know what he wants to do. After all this is a avery personal sport.
I have shot hundreds of carp with a 28 lb recurve bow and a 1200 grain fiberglass fish arrow. Everything has an application.

I would adjust the shaft length and head weight of the 2219 to get your arrow tuned.  Probably about  31" with a 300 grn head.

One thing I will add is that increased arrow weight has always resulted in higher momentums for a given bow in my testing.  Here are some fairly accurate numbers from actual testing done on a homemade recurve with about a 45 lb draw weight (measured arrow weight in grns, measured velocity in fps, and calculated momentum in slugs).  

509 - 172 - .3935
595 - 161 - .4263
720 - 147 - .4699
842 - 137 - .5122

The first 2 arrows are easton axis shafts of differing lengths and head weight and the second two where 2219 aluminum.    There is an easy to use momentum calculator on the Tuffhead Broadheads website along with some interesting articles on the momentum required for certain game animals.  You can hunt anything with a 30 lb bow and the right arrow as long as you can shoot it accurately.  That said, my goal for hunting arrows is to be between 11 and 12 grns per pound of bow draw weight.  

I have set up lightweight bows with heavy arrows for my daughters to hunt with when they were young.  It does work.  Yes big arcs happen, but can be shot accurately if you work at it.

[BCR1985]

Thank you for all the input. I hope I didn't upset anyone with this post. I've just realized in my limited experience that you can usually Taylor the spine to fit most draw weights and yes there will always be a change in the arrows trajectory but as was pointed out above you can learn to anticipate the impact point of an arrow regardless of arc.  I've also seen this work in the field. I have personally killed several 60 to 70 pound wild hogs with a 36 pound Ben Pearson colt and a 2018 XX75 shaft cut to 29 inches.  Total arrow weight was just a little over 600 grains per inch . I can play with my set up until I get it where I need it to be but the experiment here was to take the heaviest commercially available aluminum shaft and to try to get it to work with a lighter bow draw weight. Just looking for some out-of-the-box ideas that I might not have already thought about. Once I get the set up right you're all welcome to come down and try your hand at our place for some big boars! I promise I will only shoot my inadequate 700 grain 40 pound set up..

[styksnstryngs]

McDave- I'm an idiot. I'm also in AP physics 2, which is an unfortunate fact in light of what I just did. But the velocity is kind of representative of the acceleration: the lower the speed, the more negative the acceleration to slow it down from dry fire speed.

[tecum-tha]

the only thing that mounts with such an heavy arrow is the probability of a wound,either through misjudged distance or through movement of the animal you shoot at. Especially hogs are scittish and seldom relaxed. They also interact a lot with other members in their group which is more potential movement due to actions by other group members. I don't doubt the ability of a 600grain arrow, but 60 and 70# hogs are babies.
I would rather optimize a 560-600 grain arrow for its flight characteristics. Especially from a longbow.
1.) Get away from Aluminums, as GT traditionals can be had in blems for about the same money. They are more slender and that will help in penetration. 3555 or.500 spine
249 grains at 29"length.
2.) Fill the first 2 thirds with braided rope glued to back of insert = 60grains gain + weight tapering.
3.)use a standard Insert (comes with shafts), a 100 grain steel broadhead adapter and a sturdy 2 blade head (ACE for example or Zwickey).
4x3" 60/120 fletching
This should yield a 580 grain arrow with 23% FOC (Ashby threshold for bone), with the shaft smaller than BH ferrule and hopefully enough speed to hopefully hitting what you want to hit in a dynamic environment.
Price: $5 per shaft, $1 adapter, $1 fletching, $5.20 broadhead, $.20 rope, $.20 glue
$12.40 total  

Use the 5575 or .400 shaft with the same length and fill it full with rope =90 grains and use a 300 grain head adapter combination.=700 grains
Same price within a dime or two.....

I don't know about super heavy in any bow if deer is the game.  The year I tore a tricep, I killed a very large doe with an 18 yard up hill shot with a Hill longbow that was maybe 37# @ 26.25" draw.  The arrow was a 5/16" Acme with a ripple edged 140 grain Hill broadhead.  It was rippled because a used a Dremel tool to sharpen it.  The arrow passed through, tagged a rib and was still6 or 8 feet into the corn field. The doe ran to the nearest cedar patch and went down.  My wife has killed deer with that bow and other of about the same poundage with cedar arrows and only once did not get two holes, the arrow lodged into the far shoulder. These arrow ranged from 420 to 430 grains. People often don't consider the effectiveness of a simple two blade head. My wife prefers Eskimos, while I prefer Grizzlies, Hunter Heads and single bevel Hills.

[indianalongbowshooter]

your bow will be shooting about 100 fps if your lucky, I shot a 47# Super Diablo drawn to 28-28.5 in. with a 600 gr carbon and it was shooting 147 fps.If your going to try to hunt with it you've reached or passed the point of diminishing returns.

[BCR1985]

Just an update: I was at the lowes the other day and noticed some 5/16 oak dowels.. Was looking at them as a potential weight tube for the 2219s. I realized quickly they'd be too wide in diameter to fit the 2219, but they seemed to be fairly consistent in grain, etc. So being the experimenter, I took a few and sanded, sealed, wrapped,  fletched and cut to 30. I put a 160 grain field point on the end. Same longbow drawing about 38 at 27. They shot great!! And hit hard!I was getting 6-8 inches up penetration at my typical distances. My furthest distance was at 17 yards and I was in vitals everytime on that foam deer target. I did the math and scaled them. They worked out to an avg of 16 gpi. The avg total arrow weight was around 680 grains! I couldn't believe what they did at 17 yards and they flew better than any cedars ive owned! I guess spine is negotiable at the end of the day? Also, I can't remember the last time I've killed an animal outside of 20 yards, so if 20 is my limit with that kind of performance I will take it! At least ill have a good set of stumpers/back up shafts in the event the 2219's fall short. Thanks to all for the input and advice!

[tecum-tha]

If these arrows fly better than any cedars you owned, you probably never owned a decent cedar arrow before which was matched to your bow and shooting style.
At 20 yards it is great if you hit your mark on a stationary target all the time, but an animal reacts to your shot and at 20 yards it will most likely already fully down or so far down that you will get a high or spine shot.
6-8" of penetration in foam with a field point is no measure of anything.
Spine is not negotiable, you just added this much mass that the shaft mass now also plays into your spine. Common with hardwood shafts and they probably already were spined right around your draw weight due to the wood quality.
And by the way, oak is a short fibered wood and that's why it is not making a good arrow which will stay straight for a good amount of time. I would be cautious using dowels from the home improvement stores....

There is a reason that the good old cedar with a 125 Zwickey Eskimo has had such a long history, they work. Some times people get a notion in their head and cannot let it go.  If something in the past like bad penetration on hit caused this, I cannot tell.  For deer the best way ensure penetration is to have the arrow flying directly behind the broadhead.  Some broadheads penetrate easier than others.  I have field dressed an hauled out far too many Iowa deer that were shot with a 38 pound at 26+" and cedar arrows shot by my wife, to think they won't fly straight and won't effectively put two holes in a deer.  Something is amiss here.  It is not all that difficult to get perfect flying cedar arrows to come out of a 37 or 38 pound longbow at 27".

[BCR1985]

I'm not sure that I understand. Do you mean to say that even an animal that is relaxed and unaware of your presence or the release of the arrow is still going to react and avoid/deflect the shot?

I've shot quite a few cedars and doug fir. They fly fine but are too light to get the kind of penetration i'm looking for. They've also broken under the same conditions these dowels have endured.

I also have to respectfully disagree with you on the foam. Just my personal experience, but the density of a foam target is designed to stop a broadhead, etc. Flesh doesn't have that same function. A scapula or vertebrae, yes. But not muscle and organs. A good broadhead with a heavy arrow flying true to the mark will punch through a deer, hog, bear's vitals like a warm bag of jello. (Just my experience)

So i guess, if they're heavy, straight, durable, quiet, and fly true, why are they so terrible? I've done far more with far less in functional quality and performance.

The initial thread was about 2219's. Looking at what these far heavier shafts have done out of this bow, I'm still confident I can gete them hitting hard and straight. Difference is of course that they have a much beefier spine. So I have to tweak them a bit.

I was taught a long time ago by a hunter and ballistics expert (who's forgotten more than i'' ever know) that the two are not mutually inclusive. In other words, how it is on paper and behind the desk is not always the case when you're in the woods and putting it into practice.

Either way, I'm looking forward to posting some success photos with both the 2219's and junk dowels!

[tecum-tha]

Try YouTube and check twisted arrow productions urban hog assault for a good example. A very fast arrow and a sighted bow and still a high shot at 20 yards. Also check bow hunting October whitetails by the Wensels..

[Bonebuster]

Too much arrow weight can "bog down" the bow...giving you less performance...

[BCR1985]

Just an update: I went to Texas in April and hunted with those 680-700 grain oak dowels. The result was a 65 pound sow killed at 16 yards or so. She made it about 20 yards before toppling over. I hit her in the front of the shoulder quartering to me. Only got about 9 inches of penetration. Hit the top of the heart with a 200 grain Kodiak. The dowel broke about 6 inches above the broadhead. (That arrow out of the 40 lb Montana longbow was 720 grains total weight.)

Just went down again last week and shot a hybrid ibex nanny at 14 yards. Led her a bit and hit her far back quartering away uphill. The arrow was a complete pass thru and hit the far lung on its way out. She never made a sound and dropped 31 yards from the point of impact. (Same set up; arrow weight of 650)

Before hunting with these shafts, I tested them extensively. My main focus with oak has been keeping them straight after shooting as they seem to be more likely to bend than cedar. That also makes them easier to straighten in the field than cedar too..

I will post some pictures for proof they work! Fun stuff!

[last arrow]

I knew a woman back in the late 80's early  90's that used bows from 35-40 lbs, had a fairly short draw, using 2020 shafts with a very heavy head, brass inserts etc.  I don't know what the arrows weighed but she had killed deer, caribou, bear and probably more with that set up.  She was a decent shot out to 20 yards with those slower than molasses arrows too.  I moved and no longer encounter her at shoots so am not sure what she is doing these days.

So use those heavy shafts and a lot of weight in your broadhead and insert and have fun.

As far as wood arrows, you might want to try birch they are nearly as heavy and strong as oak and should stay straighter while shooting.

[Bill from NJ]

BCR1985,
I don't think some folks here understand that the minimum hunting bow Draw weight here in NJ is only 35#.
And that our average shots at deer/critters are so close you can count the ticks crawling on the animals.
Close shots are the normal, due to being in very dense bush. Well at least here in the Southern NJ area.

I too like using a lower poundage longbow with a heavy arrow.
45# @ 28", drawn to 26.5"
27" Beman Centershot 500 Carbon Arrow
125 Grain 2 blade Zwickey glued to a 100 grain steel screw on adaptor, joined to a 75 grain brass insert. (Total up front = 300 Grains.)
my personal stats read:
Arrow specific weight = 13.3 GPP
Arrow weight= 553 grains
Arrow speed = 157 fps
Arrow energy = 30 ft-lbs
Front of Center = 24.7%

I am confident I can have any arrow blow clean through any critter around here, whether it be... Deer, Black bear, and now the explosion of wild pigs.

Experiment and enjoy yourself. This sport can be tweaked to meet any personal needs you see fit.

Remember, have fun and try out things you have a hankering for.

[JRY309]

Why do you want an arrow so heavy? There is a point of diminishing returns with an arrow that heavy for a 38# bow!

[Thumper Dunker]

 

[Zradix]

Glad you're having some success!
Like many have said....you are definitely going against the norm with that heavy of GPP.
But if that's what ya want to try, I'm not gonna try to stop ya.

Anyway...to add a little more weight to your current setup you could soak the dowels in some tung or linseed oil for a while.
They might swell a little.
I've heard of people doing it...but never have myself.