Any second opinions on this turkey arrow tune-up?

[Silent footed]

Okay Guys. Haven't been on much this week because I've been shooting. Going to use my old bow for turkey season.

Here's where I'm at:

Bow:
64" straight grip, slight r/d longbow, brace height 6 3/16", nock +13/16", shelf cut to 3/16" center, 1/16" strike plate ( that makes 1/4" total off center),
B-50 string, rubber whisker silencers at 11" from loops,
Very comfortable: clicker pops at about 4:30-5:00 ish, giving me a draw length of 25" and a 48# draw weight. I shoot 3-under, deep hook.

Arrows: 50-55 parallel cedar, 11/32" dia, 190gr field point (until broadheads come this week), 5" parabolic LW true-flights.
29 1/4" BOP. Total arrow wt 530 gr, FOC is 18%.

Results:

DAY 1: point-on distance of about 33 yards (YES!), groups at this distance were slightly larger than a baseball centered exactly where I was holding arrow point. I could not detect any porpoising at all, and no major fishtailing, although I did occasionally detect the TINIEST, SMALLEST, slight wiggle almost unnoticeable to me at all.

Was very pleased with excellent arrow flight and accuracy, but I still suspected a slightly weak dynamic spine. Most guys would bareshaft tune at this point to check; but I don't bareshaft and I won't. But I WILL dip my fletchings in water (same idea).

DAY 2 (Lots of rain): shot in rain, and as fletchings began to soak, I noticed a dramatic fishtailing. Bingo, my conclusion was the dynamic spine was still too light.

The only thing I did was to trim my shafts by 1/4". The results shifted my groups over 5" (still raining), and made them less tight. I increased the brace height to 6 1/2" to compensate and got no change (still 5" to left).

I think I probably should have trimmed by 1/8" instead.

Does all this sound right to you guys? Especially on the following 4 specifics:

1) With the 190 grain points and a 29 1/4" BOP shaft length, I would have BET on needing a higher spine than 50-55.  (I'm guessing it's because of my shorter draw length and 1/4" off center shelf?)

2)The nocking point always seems a bit high on this bow. Weird; but I shoot 3-under. So maybe that's why.

3) Yes, I do keep my arrows long (it allows my point on-distance to be the same as my maximum hunting shot distance without using a fixed crawl). I say that's not wasted arrow. I use every inch of it to get my point-on distance that low (just PM me if you are also a split-vision shooter and want to convince me otherwise).

4) What about when I trimmed the shafts by 1/4" though? Should it have effected my left/right impact THAT much, considering they were already slightly low in dynamic spine? (I mean, the 5" impact was from beyond 30 yards, which is probably unnoticeable at 10 or 20 yds, right?, so I guess that makes a sense).

5) Yes, I understand that the field points may not fly the same as broadheads, but once they arrive I will make the adjustments and tune to them. This is was just ballpark so I know which shafts to order.

[Pine]

You do realize when the feathers are wet, that adds weight to the back of the arrow and will show a heavy spine.

[Silent footed]

You do realize when the feathers are wet, that adds weight to the back of the arrow and will show a heavy spine.

Yes, but that effect is slight enough that it doesn't render the technique of wetting invalid, because if the dynamic spine is weak, it will still show. The slight stiffening effect just isn't enough to cancel out shaft weakness. Hence the fishtailing (weak spine) I got after the feathers became wet (we can talk about that via pm if you'd like).

You're right though, the slight stiffening could be the reason for the more drastic stiffening effect of the 1/4" length change. Hadn't really considered it. But the rear weight definitely enhanced/greatened the effect of trimming to get stiffness at least.

What do you think about things up until day one? Would you agree with my assessment as possibly slightly weak at least, regardless of what technique I used to confirm it? Or do you think I need to go as high as 55-60? I'm leaning towards thinking that would be too much but I'm really not sure.

Thanks.

[Friend]

The bottom line, no matter what tuning method used, is that your BH's and field tipped arrows should share the same mark.

If your BH and field tip share the same mark at your 33 yard point-on distance, you're golden.

[Silent footed]

Yes sir, they need the same mark! and you'll hear me cheering all the way from here when it happens. Right now, I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth the money to try ordering some 55-60's.  Anyone else worry that the 50-55's might be a bit light once the broadheads arrive? I mean the flight seemed great.  I just can't believe that 190 gr field points were flying as well as they were on 29" BOP 50-55's. Am I the only one that thinks that's a bit fishy and  the truth might come out once the broadheads arrive and get mounted?

I mean, I don't want to buy 55-60's and not need them...or need them and not have them once the broadheads arrive!

Anyone think I should order them just in case?

[Broken Arrows]

What if you just drop the tip weight down to 175 grains?

[Silent footed]

I thought of that actually, broken. The only reason I decided against it is the lack of field points and blunts available at 175 grains. (I am really sick of all of the tricks like 160 gr plus a nail in the taper, lead shot, etc, woody weights... ).

Thanks for the input though.

 

[Bowguy67]

Use whatever you have set for deer. There’s no reason imo to change everything all around.

[Cory Mattson]

If you won't bare shaft I won't help you.

NO dipping fltch in water is not the same idea

My broadheads and field points ALWAYS hit the same mark when I am done tuning.

[Silent footed]

Cory,

It is a similar idea, and a perfectly tuned arrow will still fly in the rain when the fletchings are wet and matted and unable to steer effectively, (similar to the way a bareshaft flies, with no steering, so there you go) and that's why it's a good test: wet fletchings that won't steer or stabilize are about as close to a bare shaft as you'll ever get while hunting.

However, Cory, I was asking for responses to items #1-#4. And aside from the rudeness, your response hit on exactly ZERO of those.

Telling me you won't help me because I won't bare shaft isnt really helping either of us here brother.

And my broadheads and field points fly together too, EVERY SINGLE YEAR after I'm finished tuning. Geez...

[Silent footed]

Use whatever you have set for deer. There’s no reason imo to change everything all around.

Yes sir! But can you blame me for wanting to have a little fun tweaking my setup?  I've been wanting to switch to the more forward of center hunting shafts, but always end up settling with my tried and true and letting it go another year. I just ordered some heavier concordes and am giving it a try finally. At least I have last year's setup to fall back on if I need to, right?

[BearBandit]

I'm curious as to why you wont bareshaft?  I've been bareshaft tuning for a week now.  Even when I buy prefletched arrows I strip one and toss it into rotation while I practice.  It will tell you right away if you changed anything your shot sequence. With my setup now if I do my part I can put bullet holes in paper, if I screw up it looks like a nunchuk went through the paper lol.

[Orion]

With that much weight up front (190 grains), and if you don't want to shorten the arrow substantially, yes, I think you need a heavier spine. The longer the arrow the more it reduces the dynamic spine.  Woodies don't react to small increments of 1/8 or 1/4 inch like carbons do.  Taking an inch off would get pretty close to duplicating an arrow with 5# heavier spine. Could try that with one arrow before you order a bunch more shafts.   

[Silent footed]

I'm curious as to why you wont bareshaft?  I've been bareshaft tuning for a week now.  Even when I buy prefletched arrows I strip one and toss it into rotation while I practice.  It will tell you right away if you changed anything your shot sequence. With my setup now if I do my part I can put bullet holes in paper, if I screw up it looks like a nunchuk went through the paper lol.

Bear bandit, it's a highly involved process that is extremely sensitive to form variation, takes a lot of time, and just isn't a good investment of my energy with the way I work nights and OT.

I do think it's a great tuning process, and I recommend keeping a tuned bareshaft in your quiver to diagnose and practice form issues with. There is a lot you can read into and do with it, and it's extremely valuable.

However, I find that by the time I have tuned by sight by watching the broadhead tipped arrow fly from 40-45 yards, and am ready to move on to bare shafting, that I am already satisfied with my arrow flight. I just simply check for decent flight during wet conditions, make sure fieldpoints group with my broadheads, and use what little time I have available ahead of me to practice with.

 

[BearBandit]

I agree it is very dependent on form, but wouldn't you rather work on issues with your form in the limited time you have to practice rather than cover up issues with fletching?
If you can get a bareshaft to group well then you're done tuning, broadheads don't matter after that so long as they are trued to the shaft.  I just don't understand why you'd rather guess than find out what's really going on.

[Silent footed]

I mean, assuming I had poor form to begin with, then yes I would rather do that... But my form is great actually. I might even outshoot you. Lol. I'm serious about that one...

Look, I just choose not to take the extra time to bareshaft. That's all.  I shoot and tune from about 45 yards watching my broadhead arrows in flight and once they are visually flying stable and efficiently with no evidence of spine or nock issues, and dropping directly about a foot or two below my point-on mark, and my field points are grouping the same, then I stop. I know how they hit and fly, and there is no guessing about anything...at all. I just see MUCH more value in spending my time exercising yardage variation and mastering the trajectory of my new arrows so I can do as many practice shots as possible in the woods threading over and under branches, shooting uphill and downhill at given yardage variations, and working on snapshooting, etc. All actual hunting shots that benefit a still-hunting archer in the rugged heavily forested mountains here.

For my purposes, I just see no value in fretting about how my already adequately-tuned arrows will fly without feathers. I do fret however about how my arrows fly when wet though, because the Catskills get a LOT of rain and I hunt in soaked clothes every single year. One afternoon of stump shooting with boomerangs is quite an eye opener...so yes, I wet my feathers when I'm done tuning and test my shafts that way, because there is a 7 to 1 chance of me getting rained on out here.

[BearBandit]

Well then I'm at a loss because you are fretting about your setup and yet you refuse to do the one thing that will confirm your suspicions. 

You more than likely would out shoot me, and I'm ok with that I got a grand total of 18 months shooting a single string.   I just don't understand why you would ask for help diagnosing a problem when you arent willing to put in the work to diagnose the problem yourself.   It's literally one shaft you need to strip the fletching off to confirm your suspicions.

[Silent footed]

Hey man, I was mainly just wondering what anyone shooting anything similar had come up with.

The fact is, I only made this thread because I'm just antsy and fired up from having nothing to shoot for a while due to waiting for more shafts to arrive since I used the last of my remaining 50-55's the other day.

I was just sitting here thinking about my tune when I wrote it, and was a little excited about it. That's all man. If I'd have known I'd get pounced on by the bare-shaft police then I'd have just kept it to myself.  Its not like I'm struggling. I tuned my first archery setup 16 years ago.