Bareshafts nosediving...please HELP!

[Onski316]

I'm about at my wits end. Satori 19" RH, medium 35# limbs, 29" draw length, 3 under, 7.75" brace height, shooting off the shelf.

The problem...
My bareshafts nosedive no matter what.

I use Black Eagle Vintage arrow full length and have tried 400, 500 and 600's with 100, 125 and 150g tips. I have take the nock point from completely level to 3/4" of an inch high. I've tried overexaggerated high wrist to compound shooting low wrist. I've tried almost-dropping-the-bow grip to tight grip. I've tried very deep hook to barely on my finger tips (I shoot 3 under with a tab). I've even tried a stiff tab to a very thin tab.

Why are my bareshafts always nosediving? When they do impact, they're kicking the nock high and they're impacting much lower on the target than the fletched. Fletched arrows I can group pretty well and consistantly.

It has to be something in my form that I'm doing wrong. Thoughts?

[JC Jr]

You didn't mention where your tiller is set.

If you're shooting 3-under, here's what I'd do were I you.

1)  Raise the brace height to about 8.5"
2)  Set my tiller a 0 (even tiller).
3)  Set my nockset at 3/8" above center (to start).
4)  Tie on a lower nockset to keep the arrow from sliding down the string on release and bouncing off the shelf.
5)  Then, begin arrow and bare shaft group tuning at about 12 yards.

Good luck to you.

[Onski316]

I'll try raising the brace height.
Tiller is even.
3/8 - 5/8 does seem to have the least amount of dive. Anything over that and it becomes very erratic.
I do have an upper and lower adjustable nock.
I'll try closer. I was out at 20 yards.

Aiming at the middle, I could get 50% of them to hit the very bottom of the bag. The other 50% hit the dirt and bounced into the bag. I did try a few at closer range, they would impact the bottom of the bag and always impacted with nock higher than POI.

[JC Jr]

I always start at about 12 yards, then back up about 5 yards at a time, making needed adjustments as I go. The first adjustment is nock height.  Once I get the bare shafts and arrows grouping at the same height in the target, I'll start to back up.  I NEVER pay any attention to nock high, low, right or left.  I only concern myself with arrow and bare shaft groups.   The other things will take care of themselves as I back up. 

There are a lot of way to skin the cat, this is what I've done for decades and it works fine for me.

[Onski316]

Nock is extreme high but tips are burrowing in the ground. Watching it in flight, it's arcing way over and plowing into the ground. I seriously think that if I shot it out to 40 yards, it would stand up as straight as a fence post. lol

I have 16 recurves, all but 2 are wooden vintage 1 pieces. They all bareshaft tuned nicely. But my takedown Martin and my Satori ILF nosedive. The Martin isn't terrible and I thought it was a glitch with that bow. But the Satori is doing the same thing, just much worse.

I think I should just stick with old Bear's and Wings. lol

[McDave]

You have all the symptoms of a false nock high.  It is essential that you come to full draw such that your string forearm is in line with the arrow, your string hand and forearm are totally relaxed, and you are pulling with your back muscles rather than your arm muscles.  If you're not sure that you're doing this, forget everything else until you're sure.  You can't build a strong house on a weak foundation.

[Onski316]

I agree my form is far from perfect but I don't get why I can bareshaft tune a KMag, SuperK, RWH, Gull, Grizzly and a KHunter just fine but my Satori is nosediving. I'm doing the same things I did with the others. Although I don't have tiller to contend with on the one-pieces. And they're great off the shelf. Now if I put a rest on the Satori, bareshafts do what they're suppose to. And yes, I am adjusting the nock accordingly to shelf vs rest. Not leaving it or measuring the same spot for both. My Sage did this. 30# but I was trying to shoot 400's out of it. I switched to 600's and it straightened that one out. But I've tried 400's, 500's and 600's on this 35# Satori with no luck. And I'm meaning to say the POI...where the tip is hitting. Not really worried about the nock orientation right now. Just want to get the bareshaft tip to impact where the fletched tips are impacting or close at least.

[McDave]

I have a Satori.  Are you using the substitute shelf rest that Hoyt provides with the bow?

[McDave]

There is no actual shelf on the Satori.  It is meant to be shot either with an elevated rest or the substitute shelf that they provide with the bow.

[Onski316]

I didn't get a shelf rest, just the Module Sideplate Kit with shims that bolts into the riser where a plunger usually would go. Which is what I'm using along with a rug rest on the actual shelf. I was able to get 600's to tune right left/right by adjusting the shims that come with the kit. Left/right is great on it. It's the vertical up/down that I'm having issues tuning. Do I need to add material under the rug rest to raise it up?

[JC Jr]

I wouldn't think you'd "need" anything else under the rug on the shelf but it never hurts to have extra clearance.

Curious... are you using the standard inserts or do you have weighted inserts?

[McDave]

I didn't get a shelf rest, just the Module Sideplate Kit with shims that bolts into the riser where a plunger usually would go. Which is what I'm using along with a rug rest on the actual shelf. I was able to get 600's to tune right left/right by adjusting the shims that come with the kit. Left/right is great on it. It's the vertical up/down that I'm having issues tuning. Do I need to add material under the rug rest to raise it up?

Sorry, you're correct.  For some reason I thought there was a supplemental shelf rest in addition to the adjustable strike plate, but there is not.

Mine is adjusted to 39# and even tiller.  I would ordinarily use 600 spine shafts, but for some reason the Satori tunes better with 800’s.   I had no problems tuning it with Victory VAP 800’s and a 100 grain glue in points.  I don't intend to use it for hunting, so I’ve never tried anything heavier.  I've never used anything other than the shelf rest material provided by Hoyt, which is similar to the fuzzy side of Velcro.

[Onski316]

So I did some shooting this morning and tried going 1/4" positive tiller and that helped out a good bit. But I think I may have figured something out. My anchor/release. I usually shoot 3 under with my middle finger in the corner of my mouth and my thumb tucked up against my cheek. I moved to my pointer finger in the corner of my mouth and my thumb hooking under my jaw. I use to shoot that way a few months ago but went to the middle finger to the corner of my mouth so I could touch my nose to the fletching and get a more solid feeling anchor. We'll it's possible it screwed something up because when I went back to pointer finger to corner of mouth and thumb under jaw bone, bareshafts started hitting where they are suppose to. I didn't get to shoot a lot. Maybe a dozen bareshaft shots but adjusted my nock point and they were hitting in the same 6" circle as my fletched now at 20 yards. Hopefully after this heat clears out a little later on today here in Texas, I can get back out and confirm that was the issue.

[kenneth butler]

Sounds like your arrows are all too stiff. I shoot 700's out of 30 pound bows or have to use heavier points. With any nock high point the arrow is trying to flip over. Feathers will correct it. A lower spine might not be so critical for you.  Ken