Spine & 50# Bows

[ChristopherO]

I'm working to bare shaft two Gold Tip styles, the some older GT XX400XX with 75 grain tip inserts and GT Traditional XT 400 with 15 grain tip inserts.  Starting long and cutting 1/4" at a time helped the side to side variations tremendously, especially when installing the 250 grain field points rather than the 150 grain tips, but no matter what I do these arrows nock kick high every time.  Yes, Yes, Yes I have played the string nock point like a fiddle from dead flat up to nearly an 1.5" high than the shelf.  No improvement whatsoever.  This is with a 50# one piece 64" recurve.  The last 1/4" cut off now shows the arrows a bit stiff, hitting to the left.  But the high nock kick up has been throughout the whole spectrum of this task.

'So', I think, 'maybe the old Bear recurve and the Martin Longbow I have on the rack will shoot these arrows flatter.  Both are 50#, the effort may be worth it.'  Upon testing not only do they continue to kick up but the stiff spine caused the shafts to really veer left as if I were using shafts for a 70# bow.  Interesting.  That didn't help any.

For those who've experienced this phenomenon, would a 500 spined shaft have a better chance of bare shafting truer and straight?  I don't have  any of those, but am strongly considering procuring some to find out. 

With feathers the field tips fly surprisingly well, but, a big BUT, with broadheads the issues show their ugly head. I'm a pretty good shot, as I used to shoot regularly some years back.  My arrow inventory from then is pretty battered, except for the examples noted at the beginning of this thread.  Knowing that a well tuned arrow is of utmost importance has caused me to embark on tuning the arrows correctly, though these are not offering any satisfaction. Thus, sadly, I have declined to take these bows out hunting.  Help save me from the dullness borrowing my son's compound to make meat and regale me with your expertise. 

[ChristopherO]

Extra Information:
28" Draw
Split Finger with glove (not interested in three under)
Slight cant
Off Shelf with arrow resting over back of grip
Fletching
Wanting at least 10 gpi
FOC is welcome (250 grain field tips help with that)

Thank you

[McDave]

I've had to deal with this phenomenon a number of times. One form consideration that you need to eliminate when shooting split is a tendency to press down on the nock with the index finger.  This will bend the arrow shaft downwards, and on release the arrow will recoil upwards resulting in nock high arrow flight.  After you have eliminated that, ensure that you have good back tension and that you are maintaining the back tension through release and followthrough.  A good indication that you are doing that is that your string hand moves directly backwards (without any help from you) after releasing the arrow and not out to the side.

Assuming there are no other form issues, the next thing to eliminate is shelf bounce from too low of a nock.  Even if you can't totally eliminate nock high, you should be able to notice a difference in the amount of nock high as you change the nock position on the string.  You state that you have tried nock positions as high as 1.5”, which I’ll admit is higher than anything I have ever tried. But I have had bows that required almost an inch high nock position before the bare shaft would fly level.  Find the position where nock high is minimized and set the nock at that position.  You can live with nock high, which will be easily corrected by the fletching, but you will never be able to shoot accurately with shelf bounce.

As an experiment, try shooting with a half inch crawl, i.e., holding the string a half inch below your nock point.  If you have true nock high, this should reduce or eliminate the nock high.  You should be able to find a crawl where your nock high turns into nock low.  Stringwalkers use this to tune their bows for some intermediate position between maximum and minimum crawl, but it is also a useful test for someone who doesn't stringwalk to see how far off their tune is. 

If you can achieve level arrow flight with a crawl of a half inch or less, you should be able to eliminate it by either adjusting tiller, if that is possible, or by raising the height of the arrow rest.  You can do that by using an elevated rest, or by putting a piece of thick leather on your shelf rest. 

If that doesn't appeal to you, then just put the nock in the position where nock high is minimized, and live with it.

[ChristopherO]

Thanks, McDave.  It has been years since bare shafting, and I wasn't too patient back then to make everything just so.  Maturity has caused me to revisit this discipline before hunting with the arrows on hand.

I took your advise to shoot 3 under about half an inch below the nocking point/s.  On my main bow the arrows still kicked high,  a little less but not much.  Multiple nocking points were used to see if any one spot on the string gave an advantage over the others and multiple distance between my fingers and the arrow were employed, as well.  What this does allow is less nock height on the string is better than where I've had been nocking for fletched arrows to shoot level.

The real interesting reaction to this experiment was when shooting the Bear recurve and the Martin LB with the crawl draw method.  They didn't kick up as high, though not flat, but they shot strongly swiveling left to right, especially with the longbow.  Of the three bows the Bear Super Kodiak probably shot the bare shafts the best, but still not impressive. 

The arrow shelf on the riser of my main bow is above the handle more than the other bows.  Interesting that you mentioned to raise the shelf more, because I did that just before the shooting session when I posted the original topic.  Using hot glue to build up a mound on the rounded shelf to elevate the shaft about 3/16" more than before.  (soft portion of commercial velcro to pad shelves)  Wish I could say that it took care of the kick up, but it really didn't, unfortunately. 

Rummaging through my archery supplies produces some 33/55 shafts from a dozen years or so back.  I had hope they would line out and fly straight with the feathers removed (leaving the quill attached), but that wasn't to be, either.  One kicked so violently that when it hit the ground in front of the target (wasn't used to the different string drawing style) that it launched into parts unknown. 

What I did learn, based on your instructions, was to keep my drawing pointer finger from crimping on the arrow too much.  Letting the two under fingers to do the heavy work of pulling with the top finger providing a much lighter touch for the Mediterranean draw style is a practice I'll incorporate into my regimen. 

I suppose at this stage trying the next deflection (weaker) on the arrow chart won't hurt any to see if satisfaction can be obtained.
Thank you for your suggestions and insights.
ChristopherO 

[McDave]

In thinking about your answer, there is one thing I would like to revisit, which is pressing down on the nock with the index finger.

If you try to solve this problem by reducing the pressure of your index finger on the string, you may be substituting one problem for another.  It is important to have index finger pressure on the string.  Exactly how much is hard to say, but the most pressure should be your middle finger, the next most your index finger, and the least your ring finger.

It really doesn't matter how much downward pressure your index finger has on the nock as long as your middle finger has an equal amount of upward pressure.  So just pull back on the string with a straight back pull.  Any downward pressure of your index finger and upward pressure of your middle finger should just be a byproduct of the string pressing them together equally against the nock.  Your focus should be on drawing with a straight back force. If you notice that you are pressing down on the nock with your index finger more than you're pressing up with your middle finger, then just lower your string elbow until the pressure is equalized.