Black Widow sight window size

[TaterHill Archer]

Trying to decide between a PMA, PSA, PCH.  What difference does it make for a 5”, 4”, or 3” sight window?  Would one be better than another for 3under shooting?

[McDave]

I can speak about a PMA and a PSA, both of which I’ve owned.  I've never shot a PCH.  I believe the PMA was originally designed with a larger sight window to accommodate bow sights. Since I have no intention of using bow sights, the only difference between the PMA and the PSA for me is the way they shoot.  Being a larger riser, the PMA may be more stable for someone who appreciates the extra weight.

But I think the biggest difference is the length of the risers, the PMA being longer than the PSA.  A longer riser means shorter limbs for the same length bow.  In order to fully benefit from recurve limbs, the recurves have to open up sufficiently when the bow is drawn.  Using limbs that are too long for a person's draw length can make a recurve lose performance and shoot more like a longbow.  Using limbs that are too short for a person's draw length can cause the limbs to be overdrawn and stack, which leads to erratic shooting.  BW provides recommended draw lengths for each of their bows, which takes this into account.  So if you have a 27” draw and want to shoot a 62” bow, you would probably be better off with a PMA, since the shorter limbs would get a better workout.  If you have a 29” draw and want to shoot a 58” bow, you would probably be better off with a PSA, so as not to overdraw the limbs and cause stacking.

BW limbs are designed to function over a wide range of draw lengths, so for most draw lengths and bow lengths, either a PSA or a PMA will work and it becomes more a matter of personal preference.

[kadbow]

I have a PCH because I like short bows. I think the sight window comes into play more if you gap or shoot the bow vertically. I cant my bow and really only see the arrow in my sight picture so the sight window size makes no difference to me.

[varmint101]

I personally like 16-17" riser and the 4" window of the PSA on a recurve, but my PL has a 2-3/4" and enjoy the heck out of it.  I will also tell you I have tried 58" PSA's and they get stiff at the end for my 29.75" ish inch draw. My experience.  BW suggested max of 29" on those so makes sense. I didn't care for the 58" PCH even and that should've been better.  60" felt much smoother on both.  I did not mind the 3" window at all on the PCH. Something I think you just get used to. All subjective of course.  I have never owned a PMA.

[GCook]

Not sure if memory serves me right but I believe the PCH and PSA have different shelf cuts past center.

[KAZ]

I personally have a One Piece KB, one piece PTF, PCH, and a vintage HS60. The KB is the shortest sight window they make. I shoot three under instinctively with a cant and I never see the riser top at all so they all work for me. I like short bows and longer working limbs so it’s short riser bows for me. 54”KB, 56”PCH, 56”PTF with a 27-1/2” draw length. I think if you shot vertical and gap shoot you may appreciate a larger sight window but a PSA fits that bill unless you just like the mass or feel of the PMA… It’s really personal preference and sure helps if you can shoot them to decide what you like… They have a great try before you buy/test drive program. Or maybe someone close to you has one? Lastly, The various bow shows are great to go and try everything Black Widow has if they are in attendance! Like Kalamazoo EXPO in January

[TaterHill Archer]

I personally have a One Piece KB, one piece PTF, PCH, and a vintage HS60. The KB is the shortest sight window they make. I shoot three under instinctively with a cant and I never see the riser top at all so they all work for me. I like short bows and longer working limbs so it’s short riser bows for me. 54”KB, 56”PCH, 56”PTF with a 27-1/2” draw length. I think if you shot vertical and gap shoot you may appreciate a larger sight window but a PSA fits that bill unless you just like the mass or feel of the PMA… It’s really personal preference and sure helps if you can shoot them to decide what you like… They have a great try before you buy/test drive program. Or maybe someone close to you has one? Lastly, The various bow shows are great to go and try everything Black Widow has if they are in attendance! Like Kalamazoo EXPO in January

Kaz,
I have a PCH and PMA now.  My first recurve was a PSA.  I think I shoot them all about the same, but I was told that the longer sight window on the PMA was more forgiving, no matter how you shoot.  I have several bows with sight windows smaller than the PCH, but shoot them ok.  I was just wondering if anyone could really point to a way one was better than the other.

[KAZ]

I personally have a One Piece KB, one piece PTF, PCH, and a vintage HS60. The KB is the shortest sight window they make. I shoot three under instinctively with a cant and I never see the riser top at all so they all work for me. I like short bows and longer working limbs so it’s short riser bows for me. 54”KB, 56”PCH, 56”PTF with a 27-1/2” draw length. I think if you shot vertical and gap shoot you may appreciate a larger sight window but a PSA fits that bill unless you just like the mass or feel of the PMA… It’s really personal preference and sure helps if you can shoot them to decide what you like… They have a great try before you buy/test drive program. Or maybe someone close to you has one? Lastly, The various bow shows are great to go and try everything Black Widow has if they are in attendance! Like Kalamazoo EXPO in January

Kaz,
I have a PCH and PMA now.  My first recurve was a PSA.  I think I shoot them all about the same, but I was told that the longer sight window on the PMA was more forgiving, no matter how you shoot.  I have several bows with sight windows smaller than the PCH, but shoot them ok.  I was just wondering if anyone could really point to a way one was better than the other.

Got it, sorry to ramble…

[ed lash]

Have PMA and PCH now, and have had PSA, PA and PTFs. The PCH clearly has a sight window that is too short for me…like the bow though. I shoot PMA a lot and love the huge sight window. I do use a sight periodically and the PMA is very good for that.

[carl390]

I owned and hunted with nothing but Black Widow recurves in the 50 pound to 57 pound range for a bunch of years. I have also owned and hunted with the three Widows that you have asked about.

First the easiest answer. There is no functional or material difference between a PMAII and a PMA III. The only difference between these two bows is the finish. The PMAII is the "Graybark" and it has a gray (more like a greenish-gray) hue to the finish; The MAIII is referred to as the "Autumn Oak" because it has a brown hue to it's finish.

There is a functional difference between a PMA and a PSA. In short, the PSA has a handle that is 2" shorter than the handle of a PMA. The PMA's handle length is 18" and the sight window is 5.5"; The PSA's handle length is 16" and the sight window is 3.5". In affect, the sight window on the PSA is 2" shorter than the sight window on the PMA. Some guys believe a larger sight window facilitates faster target acquisition and improves the overall visibility of the target; other guys won't notice the difference between a 3.5" sight window and a 5.5" sight window unless you point it out to them.

In comparing a 60" PSA to a 60" PMA (Note: both bows have the same overall length in this example) there is a slight functional difference. Because the PSA has a riser that is 2" shorter, this allows for a "working limb" that is 2" longer. Some believe that a longer working limb is smoother to draw and will generate slightly more cast than a shorter working limb. In the hands of an expert archer, this difference might be appreciated. As a practical matter, most archers would not perceive a difference between the performance of a 60" PSA and a 60" PMA.

PSAs are offered in overall lengths of 56"-62"; PMAs are offered in overall lengths of 58"-64". Essentially, the PSA is marketed as a bow for those who like to go "short and light". The PMA is marketed as a bow for those who like a "heftier, longer bow with more stability". As I indicated above, 9 out of 10 guys would shoot a 60" PSA and a 60" PMA equally well and would not be able to perceive a difference in performance between the two bows.

Because of the difference in length in the risers between a PSA (16") and a PMA (18"), the PMA is an ever-so-slightly heavier bow. Black Widow reports that a 58" PSA weighs 3 pounds and a 60" PMA weighs 3.25 pounds. I have owned a 60" PSA and PMA at the same time and could not perceive a difference in weight.

They are both GREAT bows and you will not be disapointed regardless of which model among these you choose.

Good hunting...

[dklug]

In reference to the sight window height alone; if you shoot with a canted bow it won't make any difference if the sight window is long or short, if you shoot with a vertical bow you'll want a longer sight window. You'll get sight picture interference from the top of the sight window with a short sight window and a vertical bow. To me this is distracting from the total concentration you need to shoot well instinctively.

Now obviously longer riser length with a longer sight window will give different shooting characteristics than a short bow with short sight window, mass bow weight being different. Some people like a physically heavy bow while some prefer a physically light weight bow.

[gregg dudley]

Great reply, Carl.

[Wild Bill MCP 808]

McDave & Carl sums it up. Get yourself a BW catalog it has all the information to make your decision.

[Terry Green]

Just curious guys, I've been hearing 'sight window' for years, but never made no mind of it. So, is it just for guys that shoot vertical?  Thx. 

[Sam McMichael]

I don't know much about the discussion of sight window. When shooting, I don't notice the bow at all. I'm looking downrange at the target. The bow may not be perfectly vertical, but it is close to it. Is there something here that I should be paying attention to? As long as the bow feels good to me, I don't worry about much else. For many years now, I have been shooting Hill style bows and have no idea what kind of sight windows they have. All I know is that if I hold on target and release smoothly, the arrow goes where it ought to go. 

[McDave]

Just curious guys, I've been hearing 'sight window' for years, but never made no mind of it. So, is it just for guys that shoot vertical?  Thx. 

Every bow that is cut to or past center has a space that is cut out of the riser for the arrow rest and strike plate.  The size of this space can vary from almost unnoticeable on a longbow to very noticeable on a wide-limbed recurve.  This space is referred to as a “sight window” whether there are actually bow sights on the bow or not.  If there is a bow sight, the sight window has to extend high enough that the shooter can see all the pins.  An example of this would be the Black Widow MA.  Other bows, like the Black Widow SA, were designed specifically for trad shooters who don't plan to use a bow sight, and have shorter sight windows.

Most gap shooters hold their bows almost, if not completely vertical, and see the sight window in their out of focus peripheral vision.  Some gap shooters like to use the sight window to frame their shot as a part of the aiming process, while others just ignore it.

For an instinctive shooter, the only importance of the sight window is for it to be large enough so that the riser doesn't block the shooter's view of the target on those rare occasions when he may choose to hold the bow vertical or nearly vertical.  If the bow is canted more than a little bit, the sight window is not visible.

[Terry Green]

Just curious guys, I've been hearing 'sight window' for years, but never made no mind of it. So, is it just for guys that shoot vertical?  Thx. 

If the bow is canted more than a little bit, the sight window is not visible.

You mean this 'sight window'....NOT the sight picture correct?

[McDave]

That's correct.  Every time any bow is shot, there is a sight picture, which includes any part of the bow and arrow that is visible to the shooter at full draw. Typically, an instinctive shooter will ignore the part of the bow and arrow that is visible in the sight picture and focus only on the point he wants to hit. Typically, a gap shooter will use some part of the bow and/or arrow to aim the shot.  The sight window is part of the sight picture when the bow is held vertically or at a slight cant, but will not be visible at some point as the bow is canted further.

[Terry Green]

Thanks Dave, the only window I notice is the one of opportunity.