Questions about barbed broadhead styles.

[outbackbowhunter]

I would be interested in learning if any sort of documented scientific study has ever been done on wounding / loss rates of game shot with barbed broadhead styles.

Its my understanding that some states have made them illegal to hunt with.

I was wondering if their is a solid reason for this, or the're banned purely from the  perception of them being inhumane.

Now, before replying, take a second to read this.

 Extract from Hunting the Hard Way, by Howard Hill.

How to make arrows.......Pg 117

One might ask why it is an advantage to shoot the head of the arrow completely through the animal. if the barbed-head type of broadhead is used and it is shot completely through the prey, there are ten chances to one that the protruding head will hang on some limb or brush in a short time and will pull the shaft out, so that if the game has not been hit in a vital spot, there will be left a clean wound which will heal quickly.

For this one reason I use only barbed broadheads.

I have never seen a broadhead arrow come back out the way it went in unless someone pulled it out, no matter what type of shoulder the head had; yet during my 25 years of hunting, I have had at least thirty arrowspulled out by having the barbed head hang on limbs, weeds, tall grass and so on. In nearly every instance of my shooting mountain lions, other cats, and bear, the broadheads have gone completely through the animal and stuck in the ground beyond the game

Thats Howard Hills take on the subject.

It has also been my personal experience that even with an animal down, it takes a planted foot and a two hand grip, and sometimes the arrow ( non barbed) comes out and sometimes its a surgical job to cut it out.

I have never seen a solid arrow strike in game, where the animal shed the arrow, so from that perspective, where is the logic in being down on barbed broadheads.

Is the perception of them being a wicked design correct, or did Howard Hill have it right?

A lot of modern broadheads are barbed, particulary in the mechanical broadhead category.

Something to think about  

[trapperDave]

what about when that head isnt sticking out the other side???? They are Illegal here and rightly so IMO.

[outbackbowhunter]

Originally posted by trapperDave:
what about when that head isnt sticking out the other side???? They are Illegal here and rightly so IMO.

Dave,
     If a non barbed head wont fall out why is the barbed head worse?

Thats basically the question I'm asking.

I know very well the popular perception about them.

What I would like you to do is think about what " you know to be right about barbed designs" and why.

If Howard Hills logic is correct, we may be banning the most humane style.

Every now and then it doesnt hurt to question what we believe and why.

[trapperDave]

I am referring to the very poor hits with an inch or five of penetration, barbed head aint comin out and ya got critters runnin around lookin like pin cushions to the general public.

[outbackbowhunter]

Dave,
     I have heard that scenario too, but what about the hits where the head is poking out the far side.

Thats why I wondered if there had been any real studies done.

Its my experience that solid hits, and pass throughs are far more common.

In a perfect world, the animal would drop dead on the spot.

The worst case you mention is a worry, but I wonder about the statistics of it happening, compared to solid or pass through shots.

In our effort to be humane hunters are we backing the right option?

Are we more worried about being seen to be doing the "right thing" or of logically playing the best odds to do the least harm ?

Can I ask you, and I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, have you personally ever had a superficial hit where you can confirm the arrow fell back out.

I am fully aware of the repugnance of the bowhunting community to barbed broadheads, but is this opinion based on good judgement or good intentions

I know the subject is a touchy one and I'm just trying to get some solid information on the subject.

[pointy sticks]

many of today modern mech BH onlt look like they are barbed when open. Most of the newer ones will fold back to close up if pulled back wards out of an animal or target.

As satted before a poorly placed shot with poor penetration can result in the arrow not backing out of the entrance wound and now you hve an anmal running around with an arrow sticking out of it.

Here they are illegal and the reg's state the the angle of the head must form a 90* or greater angle at the base of the BH and the shaft.

Many of the modern mech BH don't meet those requirement but because the fold upon retraction they seem to over look them.

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by outbackbowhunter:
Its my experience that solid hits, and pass throughs are far more common.

Not official statistics mind you, but of the 20 or so guys I talked to out here this year who harvested a deer during archery season, exactly 2 had an exit wound (both pass throughs).  The others only had an entrance wound.

The vast majority of bowhunters don't take the time to properly tune their equipment, which robs their set up of its penetration potential.  Add into the mix the current trend of light (or ultra light) arrows and you have a good recipe for only having an entrance wound.

I don't remember how many of the guys told me the arrow was still in the deer when they recovered it, but I do know a few that never found the arrow, so it must have pulled out.

[outbackbowhunter]

Jeremy,
       It would be good if statistics were kept on arrow wounds.

A lot of arrows do get broken when the animal runs thru the scrub, and some of the lighter arrows and junk broadheads blow up on ribs or big bones and dont have any significant penetration.

Its a shame that a state or county couldnt gather statisics on the extent and nature of arrow wounds.

Maybe you could ask your mates to record their kill details next season. If nothing else it would be an insight into which equipment choices make the deepest wounds and quickest kills.  

Your mates that didnt find their arrows, can you ask them a little more detail. 90% Pass through, verses shallow hit,etc, what circumstance do they put the missing arrows down to.

This is the sort of detail I'm interested in.

[outbackbowhunter]

Pointy sticks,
               I wonder about the mechanical designs that fold back.

When they fold I assume the blades swing out wider, how effectively do they swing out wider when surrounded by flesh?

If they were poking through as a pass through they wouldnt grab the brush to pull the shaft out either.

To my mind they seem the worst option of all the possible scenarios.

[outbackbowhunter]

Jeremy,
        My set up is a 65# modern recurve, 2219 arrows and 3:1 broadheads.

They usually give me pretty good penetration. I take your point about lighter tackle.

[Jeremy]

All these guys were compound shooters.  Most were using carbon arrows if I remember correctly.  One of the pass throughs was a buddy of mine shooting alums - not sure about the other.  The guys that didn't find their arrows only had an entrance wound and enough penetration to kill the deer.  I'm guessing not finding the arrow is a result of not keeping their head up when following the blood trail, but if it didn't make it through the animal and it wasn't in the animal when they found it, the arrow had to have pulled out while the deer was running.

I teach bow hunter education for the state, so i get to talk to many seasoned bowhunters who are bringing their kids or friends to class, or need to update their certification.

I think people drastically underestimate how poorly a improperly tuned set up will penetrate.  I constantly get guys telling me their set up is "tuned" and then tell me they have to aim 3-4" low and/or to the side when shooting broadheads!  Those guys are typically the ones who tell me they've never gotten a pass through on a whitetail!

The number of people I've talked to with similar stories far outnumber the pass throughs.  Even in our shooting league, only about 1 in 10 people have thier equipment tuned to the point where they don't need to adjust their aim when shooting different heads.  There's a reason I came close to winning the broadhead shoot (1 lousy point!!), even though I'm the only one shooting a stickbow - and I ain't that good!  

IMO, the barbed heads are illegal with good cause.  The mechanical heads aren't legal in all areas either.

[WidowEater]

what a windy subject this is.  Near as i can tell if you dont have a passthru then you pretty much have a situation that the barbed head would have if it wasnt a passthru.  The arrow inside is going to wreak havoc whether it is barbed or not.  Quite often arrows break off in the game too.  Would this be desired?  Probably not.  Do we have control over it?  No.  If there is only partial penetration then there is going to be significant collateral damage to the animal.  

From an Economists perspective then hear this:

When there is partial penetration there is going to be significant internal damage done whether the arrow breaks off or not.  If it is a good shot and takes both lungs or other vitals then this will only quicken the death of the animal.  If it is non vitals it will still quicken the death of the animal possibly making for a successful harvest and possibly not.  

All things being equal which is better, a good shot or a bad shot?  (Obvious)   Is it something we can control, only partially in hunting situations.  

Its like comparing apples to apples here.  There is no difference whether you use a barbed or regular BH.  The collateral damage statistically will even out in the essence of it all.  The ratio of total killed animals to killed and recovered animals will remain equal.

I smell political covering your own donkey when it comes to keeping friends with PETA and a particular lawmakers constituents.  

In the end like all the answers before this the bows draw weight, fps, gpi, limb design, grip, material, broadhead, all matter a little but not much compared to putting the arrow into the right place.

All of this is assuming the setup is tuned properly.  Any advantage to diminish the margin of error and the fog of war that defines hunting has to accomplished by todays archer and there should be no substitute of bow weight over tuning or anything like this.

[outbackbowhunter]

Ok,
   heres my take on it.

If your a good shot and shoot heavy equipment, the type of equipment where as you're surprised when you dont achieve pass throughs, barbed heads have some positve features, as per Howard Hill's take on them.

The no barbed head laws were made to take account of  the people who hunt with lighter gear,and poor bow tune with broadheads, where their are too many negatives and possible ethical problems.

In expert hands yes, in most, no, to barbed heads.

In any case, when bowhunters talk about the deer they shoot, we should ask about arrow pass throughs, did it happen and if not, why not.

The best possible scenario is no arrows in any deer, just entry and exit wounds.

Ed Ashbys research is a good read to this end.

Ps: and before anyone  asks, no I dont intend hunting with barbed designs. As I personally usually get pass through shots I cant see much advantage either way.

My best pass through ever, was eighty metres long with a smallish porker, lol.

[Earl E. Nov...mber]

Pretty sure there was very little scientific evidence or reason behind baning barbed heads.. Most barbs went by the wayside in the early 1940's due to many states banning them.. In the early 1940's there was very little scientific reason behind any game management.In Nebraska, they are still legal although I don't know of anyone shooting them.