The void = proof

[JimB]

I wondered too,during exhale,don't the lungs shrink and not completely fill the chest cavity?

[trapperDave]

yes they fill the space, the size of the space/lungs is dependant on movement of the diaphram.

[Whip]

That's kind of what I thought Dave.  It couldn't work to have the lungs expand and contract without something else taking up the space.

[Shaun]

Yes, the lungs fill the space and expand and contract with the movement of the diaphragm and the rib cage. A well placed broad head will cause the"pneumothorax" phenomenon in which the lungs collapse because the diaphragm and rib cage movement causes air to be sucked through the arrow holes and the balloon of the lungs deflates. This causes unconsciousness quickly from lack of oxygen to the brain.

[BigHink66]

I think this is a good thread and a good discussion that may help someone to make a humane harvest.  I personally don't believe in the void, but I still try to avoid it.  I don't want to become a believer.  If that makes sense.

One thing though, referring to an earlier post about this thread being fuel for the antis.

Who the heck cares?  They are after hunting in general and I quite frankly am tired of being sympathetic to their views.  They will attack our heritage no matter what we do or do not openly discuss.  I personally will not give into the PC of things.

Sorry to rant.

[DRR324]

I agree with Bard about dull broadheads being a big part of this very discussion.  I firmly know there is NO VOID.  No space below the spine and above the lungs-period, end of story.  However, we as hunters don't give the whitetail credit during some marginal hits.  With the speed that things happen during our shots, doubt seeps in with each passing moment during a less than optimal shot condition.  These animals are built for survival, and can live with the top of a lung or both lungs cut.  Many stories abound with pics like the one above.  Give credit to the critter, and speak less about how the shot looked perfect- "but musta hit the void".....

[Jedimaster]

Think of the chest cavity as a vacuum.  There is negative pressure, if you pierce it then air rushes in.  Consequentially the lung will deflate as it cannot function outside of the vacuum.  Just like a baloon.  Like was stated, it is called a pnuemothorax - medically speaking.  Now there are multiple lobes to the lung so this doesn't always affect the entire lung or there may only be partial deflation if the wound can close.  Compare this with the fact that many times people survive with only one lung and usually completely recover from a pnuemothorax if treated.  Not trying to be overly technical but when you see things from this standpoint it is easier to understand why it is critical to use sufficiently adequate equipment and take shots that produce (hopefully) a double lung hit.

[JimB]

TrapperDave,Shaun and Jedimaster,thanks for the info.This is a great thread,an important one.     So if only one lung is hit does the other one ever deflate or does it stay inflated.Does a one lung hit depend more on blood loss then,to get the job done?

[bama]

The facts are that deer can be hit and live.  Obviously any time this happens, by definition, the hit was non-lethal.  It was not necessarily because of a dull broadhead or an irresponsible shot.  I don't see that it matters if some people call it a void or not.  Everyone strives for a perfect center punch double lung or heart shot but it does not always happen.

[Ben Woodring]

I'm thinking when deer do that wind up drop jump boing thing the insides are sloshing around to some degree and voids could occur.  Same thing my insides use to do when riding helicopters in the service or that feeling of stuff moving around in you when on a roller coaster.  That whole things at rest tend to stay that way and things in motion tend to keep motioning.  Shooting a deer on alert certainly has some interesting results!!

[maxfit]

I have been looking at some deer anatomy pics. Seems there is some room for an arrow to pass thru and  "avoid"( sounds better), anything lethal. Above the diaphram , and behind the lungs??

[Guru]

The lungs fill up the chest cavity,that's why the chest heaves while breathing.....

Diaphragm runs top to bottom and curves forward...there's no way for an arrow to be above it really...and if you're behind the lungs, you're behind the diaphragm too and not in the chest cavity at all.....

still don't see any proof of "the void"

[mbbushman]

I believe there is no " void in the chest" If you hit the chest cavity, you will hit the lungs or heart. That said, I also believe that due to differences in the physiology of different deer, it is sometimes possible to shoot a deer below the spine, and not hit the chest cavity, rare, but possible. No void!!!

[Brian Krebs]

I am just not going to believe in any 'study' or 'conclusion' about the effectiveness of a specific arrow --- without proof of the sharpness of the broadhead.

 When the native americans were using metal heads; and making them rapidly; I think they too had problems with sharpness. I read the records of a medical doctor from the 'Indian wars'; where one guy was hit with 18 arrows in the chest- in one battle: and did not die.
 Every soldier shot in the gut with an arrow: died from the injury.

 Arrows kill by making oxygenated blood NOT reach the brain. When lungs are hit; the ability of the lungs to supply oxygen to the brain goes down. With heart shots; if you hit an artery (which carry oxygenated blood from the heart)the animal will die faster than when a vein ( which carries blood into the heart)is hit.

 There is a possibility that an arrow can either hit the lung and ~not~ cause it to bleed and continue to bleed ( a dull head can impede the continued bleeding of a wound).

 Hair can be pushed into a wound.. heck lots can happen.

 As a person who has 'processed' game meat; I have only found one arrow; and that had a broadhead on it. I have the scapula from that elk; if anyone wants to surmise why the arrow missed lungs..let me know.

 I have talked to a lot of other processors; and arrows and broadheads are a rare thing; compared to round balls from muzzleloaders; and high powered rifle bullets - and even .22 rounds.

 So much depends on sharpness; so much on if the animal has just finished drinking; if it is pushed after the hit; if the arrow hit something on the way to the animal ( hitting branches will dull a head); and the fitness of the particular animal. Too; if the animal has an escape route; and uses it; and lays down on the wound entrance- that could apply direct preasure and stop bleeding.

 We all have hit animals -and have had them die quickly and humanely on a regular consistant basis; and that is my goal. Not wounding.

 I believe sharp heads; and accurate shots produce high percentages - ~overwhelming percentages~ of quick kills.

 There are exceptions to every expected outcome; do a search on 'mike the rooster' and see what a chicken can live through !

[red44]

Originally posted by JimB:
TrapperDave,Shaun and Jedimaster,thanks for the info.This is a great thread,an important one.     So if only one lung is hit does the other one ever deflate or does it stay inflated.Does a one lung hit depend more on blood loss then,to get the job done?

Two things are going on, blood in the lung space from the one hit, and either air pressure loss or if the hole to the outside gets plugged, then it's called a tention pnumothorax. Meaning air and/or blood from the from the injured builds in the chest sqeezing out the space for the other lung to expand. Tecnically if it's blood it a hemopnemothorax. In the ER shows you'll see them putting in a chest tube to drain blood and relieve that pressure. Just like with people, with damage to only one lung it can be fatal or survivable.

[maxfit]

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/292686

Heres a link with multiple 3d views..

[buckeye_hunter]

I read once about a big road killed buck that had three slug wounds AND an arrow wound completely healed over! A Chevy finished him off though!

-Charlie

[trapperDave]

never underestimate the clotting abilities of deer blood...it FAR surpasses our own.